All right. Well, welcome back to another recording of the Ask Free Grace Baptist uh podcast where we answer various questions. This is our eighth time we're recording batch eight as I call it. [snorts]

And actually will be

like question 73. We've already done 72 that we've published.

You can find those all on the website.

There's on sermon audio and on YouTube.

Um best place to go is to freegrace.ca asks and you can search them. search there and filter and see transcripts,

links to YouTube, all all of that. So, very easy to share and find

and read them. So, [snorts]

great.

And yeah, I really enjoy doing this. I learn a lot as well.

Um, so yeah. Um, so I'm here with my pastors Cameron Porter and Jim Butler. So, welcome back.

Thank you.

Thank you for doing this. Good to be here.

Good to be here.

All right.

So, we'll go into our first question, which is uh submitted by someone. uh how to go about planting a church.

So yeah,

Church Planting

what does scripture teach about planting a new church? What are practical first steps for someone who has that on their heart to go and plant let's say a confessional reform Baptist church?

Um often an area where there isn't one, right? If there was one, they would join, but there isn't one.

And what support, resources, partnerships can they take advantage of?

Sure.

You want me to take a look at this, Ken? Okay.

Well, the general overarching principle is the great commission. Go therefore, make disciples of all the nations, baptize those disciples that are made, and then teach those disciples all things that the Lord has commanded. So, you've got the doctrine, the gospel preached, sinners saved, and then taught all things that the Lord had commanded. So, the teaching takes place in the context of a local church.

So the the broadest application [snorts] of church planting would be the the the great commission. And then specifically with reference to planting a church, I think it's most important that you have people. Um the church isn't a building. Churches use buildings and that's perfectly acceptable.

But the church isn't a building. The church is the people of God. So in order to plant a church, you've got to have the people of God. And ideally, you should have somebody that would hopefully be able to teach and preach and shepherd those people.

Um, it's not absolutely essential. I think that elders are essential for the well-being of a church, but not necessarily the being of a church. So, there can be feasibly a time where you have a group of people gathering together that don't have a specific shepherd at that at that point. Um but ideally people um a pastor or somebody in route to pastoral ministry to serve that group of people and I would say as well you know bound together by a common confession.

Of course we are reformed baptists which mean that means that we subscribe to the second London confession of 1677. Um, so any churches that we would help plant, we would make sure or want to make sure that they are confessional. [clears throat] That is not to say that every other expression of a church is bad or evil or a synagogue of Satan. Not a not it at all. But we believe in the division of labor.

We believe that, you [clears throat] know, we have a common confession and we have a vested interest in seeing churches planted that represent that confession of faith. So not a disc against any other groups. May they be blessed of the Lord in their church planting efforts. But for us, it's usually going to rally around the the the confession that we hold to.

And then so if you know we were assisting, we would assist by you know these sorts of observations, these sorts of assistances, perhaps filling their pulpit from time to time, addressing some of the particular needs that they have. Uh there's a financial component. The way that we have planted churches in the past historically is that we pony up a bit of the dough. We expect the church that's being planted to pony up some of that dough.

And then if there's other needs or other churches that want to cooperate, they can as well. And so that's basically it that I can think of. I'm not sure if that gets at the heart of the question. Any other thoughts there?

Um, I'm comfortable with Jim's answer.

I

guess it's it's it's it's a plant, so it's analogy of a seed, right? So, it's got to grow and mature.

That's right.

Yeah.

But it's Yeah. For like a child there, it's got to grow up, but eventually because a healthy church would be

having the elders, a plurality, and then planting more churches, and they plant more churches. It's got to continue and spread, right?

It's perpetual.

And it's Yeah. that's based on, you know, that that general principle of making disciples. Gather those disciples together, teach those disciples everything that Christ commanded. Those disciples in turn will then seek to go out and make disciples. And that's how the whole process is supposed to work.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I [snorts] I think it's important too for the people who are going to be constituting that planted church. Let let's say in an example where perhaps there are no officers immediately. um to to have a a proper disposition and outlook that there is no perfect church under heaven. I think there can be this this idealistic

um

capturing that that sort of animates the people where they're going to they're going to get what you know what they want what they see as as the perfect church. But there is no perfect church this side of glory. and to to manage expectations within that safe rubric of what a church ought to look like and should look like in glorifying God in in owning the Savior and in rallying around the the things that are to be most surely believed amongst the that gathered assembly.

Um but uh but but understanding that uh there's still sin. Uh there's still we still live in a in a fallen world. Christians are still marked by remaining corruption. And so I I think it's good to have an excitement about the church planting endeavor, but to to manage that within uh within the rubric of what the Bible says concerning the fact that on this side of glory, we're still marked by

by that uh

that remaining corruption.

Yeah, I think from what I've heard again, you guys would have more exposure in that than I do, of course.

Um but a lot do kind of

um fizzle on the vine or whatever the analogy is. They die before they can get to maturity and really rooted, right? Just because of division, lack of unity,

egos, pride.

Yeah.

And and insistence on preferences. I mean, the bottom line is is that Yeah.

There's a tension. You're never going to get everything that you want out of a church. And you shouldn't.

It's not a it's not it's all it's not about you. It's about Christ. [clears throat] And so a confessional approach, we've got the the the general characteristics.

We've got specific marks of what a true church is.

Preaching of the word, ministration of the sacraments, discipline.

Yeah. People may want extras here or extras there, but you got to be willing to just say, you know what, the word's being preached here. My soul is being fed. What else could I or should I want?

Yeah.

And yet, and it's not just in a church plant setting, it's in a church life setting.

Yeah, you're you're you got to focus on the main things. [clears throat]

And it'd be nice if we had, you know, this that or the other, but it's not requisite. It's not necessary.

And you know, you are free if so if you're so inclined to go where those things are.

Mhm. which, you know, as long as you're not the consumer mindset, well, I've got to, you know, everything's got to be about me.

Yeah.

That that's a dangerous position. But at the same time, if you are needing something that's better for you spiritually, I don't think it's necessarily wrong to to leave and look for something else.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

And going back to to Jim's uh comment regarding having a good confession of faith as that which serves foundationally for the you know the life and the well-being of the church. The the best of the confessions of faith will have a chapter on the church um and on on Christian worship which obviously intimately touches upon the the doctrine of the church. And so having those chapters in a confession of faith, the the people who are going to constitute a church plant can have the the honest declaration of what they believe a church is to be. And it's helpful that confessions of faith, you [snorts] know, never include those things that are inconsequential to the life and the structure and the constitution of a church.

They always capture the simplicity, however, however condensed or however expanded the chapter may be on the doctrine of the church. It it always captures those things that things that are necessary for a church to be church um and excludes those things that people ought not to be busy about for for what a church is to be.

Yeah. Good.

And I'm just just thinking of um what Jim you said this many times the the value of mentors. Obviously you worked with um Dr.

Porcelis for many years and others and you're you're mentoring other people. So importance of that you always shared and also just being in association.

Oh yeah. Yeah.

Don't be alone. There are so many people they're willing to help and pray and guide.

Right.

That's right. Yeah. Beneficial to be in in an association and beneficial for younger men to find older guys that will, you know, take an interest and be there for them to advise and encourage and pray for and

Yeah. It's a it's a group effort.

Yeah.

Okay.

We'll leave that one there. Okay. [snorts]

[clears throat]

Uh so somebody's there might be a group of people they might have some leaders an elder or two or part-time um but they discover the confession and they're like yeah we want to go in that direction

um the people aren't there um so

Toward Full Confessional Subscription

how to bring people in that direction towards a full subscription because we should define what that means

without losing people like can that be done and and how how do you go about that?

Yeah. Yeah. I think it can be done. It has been done.

Mhm.

I mean, when I looked at that question, the first text that I thought of was Paul's closing admonition to Timothy in second Timothy 4. Preach the word, be ready in season and out of season, convince, rebuke, exhort with all

long suffering and teaching. So I think that it's wise

if the man of God has a full or conviction on full subscription to the confession, he needs to be patient. He can't ram it down the throats of those who he thinks should receive it.

You got to be faithful. You got to be long-suffering. Um teaching the confession is probably one of the best ways to cultivate confessional mindset. You know, some people are exposed to the Calvinism in a confession and then they think that, oh, I'm confessional.

No, there's, you know, Calvinism or reformed theology or doctrines of grace are obviously taught in our confession, but it far transcends that. And so, the people of God need to be taught the entirety of the contents of the document. It should be explained. It should be demonstrated scripturally.

It should be shown. And again with that, you know, mindset of longsuffering and patience and don't try to force it and don't lay down ultimatums. If you, you know, people don't get this in 3 months, then I'm going to I'm going to leave or whatever.

It's got to you got to just be patient. And, you know, hierarchically, I think there there are doctrines.

You know, if it were me and I was trying to bring a church to a position, a full subscription to the confession, I would certainly capitalize on and take pains to teach chapter 2. I think there's some big problems on theology proper in the church as a whole. So, I would definitely want to go there. I'd want to go to chapter 8 and I'd want to teach on Christ the mediator because again I perceive some problems when it comes to the person and the work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I I would I would definitely visit initially those chapters that even if persons don't end up full subscriptionists, they're better theologically and hopefully, you know, will be more useful in whatever church they they end up in. So yeah, that that that's kind of how I think I would go.

And certainly chapter seven, I mean, I'm going to just start rattling off chapters now.

They're all good, right?

Chapter seven, you know, the the the thing that distinguishes the second London confession from much of Calvinistic Baptist theology is our view of covenant theology. And so it's important that the people of God who are

looking into the second London understand the the architecture of covenant and they need to understand that that's kind of what you know we hang our hat on when it comes to the way God works in in and through his son to save people from their sins.

You know the things that are specifically distinctive to to reformed Baptists. Yeah.

It's going to take some time. Chapter 22 of religious worship and the Sabbath day of religious worship, you know, the regulative principle of worship. It's a tough pill for a lot of people to swallow. Coming out of churches where there's banjos and and pony shows and whatever, you know, you come into one of our churches and it seems by comparison boring, which I take great objection to.

I don't think it's boring at all. Um, but then the Sabbath day, you know, the Sabbath day and the identification or the perpetuity of the fourth commandment,

it's a tough nut for some people to swallow. And so, again, I think patience, faithfulness, and perseverance, and teaching from scripture, these things, is the best way to bring people along.

Mhm.

Yeah. I just what's coming to mind is it's got to be integrated through the the regular preaching because you you won't get everyone out to a Wednesday night Bible study or a Saturday morning, right?

It's got to be in the preaching, preaching the text verse by verse,

which is great because our confession doesn't do anything other than summarize biblical truth. So, it's not like

I can't preach on covenant from the Bible or I can't preach on Sabbath day from the Bible or I can't preach on,

you know, theology proper Christologology from the Bible. Of course I can. [clears throat]

Yeah.

And I think good faithful preachers that have that context or that 1689 mindset, yeah, they they not only preach exeetically specific texts, but they do it systematic theology as well, connecting it with other texts and other things, dealing with objections to the doctrine and and so on. So yeah, I think it

it can and should be done with patience and with, you know, a desire to promote the glory of God and the good of the people.

I honestly think that, you know, Christians that adopt one of these confessions, they [snorts] should be happier and well more well adjusted and, you know, they know their their their scriptures more.

I think it's a greatation.

I certainly am. So, I'm thankful for it. Yeah.

Okay.

Okay. Next question.

How to choose a new church? This [clears throat] is a short question, but there's comes some parts to that. They might be in a church already or maybe are brand new to Christianity, right? But generally, I think this would be for people who are in a church and

not 100% happy.

I think it's the place they should be. So, it's like how do you leave it and how do you find another one and transition with

respect I guess and land up in the right place.

Yeah. Go ahead.

Yeah. Um I I think one of the one of the first things to maybe touch on or or treat is is how to to not leave your existing church. [laughter] You know, I I think um going back to the question about uh about how to go about planting a church and those things that are that are inconsequential to church or to Christianity and those sorts of things.

As Jim talked about the preferences sometimes that people can elevate to the top of the list um as far as those things uh those reasons for which they are in this case, you know, leaving their their church or choosing a new one. Um, I think there are a lot of bad reasons to leave your existing church. Um, and so those may need to be treated in kind, but that's not necessarily the question. Um, how how to choose a new church.

If if a person has come to the to the wholesome and the right decision that the church that they're presently at um is not their church. It's not a gospel preaching church. It's a you know, it's a it's a synagogue of Satan. It's a it's a church that has departed from the truth.

They're not preaching the gospel. They're not adhering to the doctrine that was once for all delivered to the saints. They're not properly a Christian church. So from that vantage point I I think choosing a new church is uh in the first place choosing one that is a Christian church that is faithful to the main things that that really are the the sum and substance of Christianity.

If we look at what a Christian church is to be about, it is to be about the triune God. It is to be about the mediator Jesus Christ. It is to be about the gospel of that Christ, his death, burial, and resurrection for the salvation of sinners. Um, and it's to be about the the the the blessings and the glories of Christian salvation, which is that salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

Um, so I think those are some of those those top things, the chief and cardinal doctrines of Christianity. Does that church get them right? And and not just do they loosely hold them on that hidden page on their website that that lists a statement of faith. Uh I I've you know in visiting churches throughout North America as I'm traveling, one of the things that I'll often do is I'll go to the website for the church and I'll and I'll search for their statement of faith.

What do they believe? And on on more than a handful of occasions I've seen, okay, this statement of faith is pretty pretty reasonable. They affirm the triunityity of God, the the deity, the humanity of Christ, uh the perfection of salvation exclusively in Christ, certain things that perhaps touch upon um our uh sort of predisposition to reformed theology, but then you you get into the context of worship and it and it's like there's just a a hat tip to that, but what they're actually doing within the context of church and worship is is different and not conducive to that historic confession. So yeah, I think faithfulness to the cardinal doctrines of Christianity and the actual practical um you know outcropping or the the actual practical display of that adherence to sound doctrine within the context of of worship.

They are preaching the gospel. They are administering the sacraments as they ought to be administered and and they are engaging in in church discipline, the the instruction of disciples, the making of disciples and and and perhaps that's a good place to go. Are they faithful to Christ's great commission in Matthew 28:18-20? Um, are they under the authority of the exalted and ascended mediator uh doing what that mediator prior to his ascension commanded that his church is to be about the preaching of the gospel, the making of disciples, the baptizing of those made believing disciples and [clears throat] the instruction uh in all of those things that that Christ had commanded to be taught and that he himself taught.

And so I I think if uh if a Christian uh [clears throat] again who has departed a a church for good reasons is looking for a church, that is what they they ought to be looking for, a a Christian church faithful to their calling.

Yeah. Yeah. I would say, you know, before you leave a church or before you find another church, know what a church is,

right? You know, my church is so boring.

Well, okay. What what what is your concept of church?

Church should be different than a date with my wife. Church should be different than watching, you know, my grandsons play T-ball.

Church should be different. Well, what is different about church?

As Cam alluded to, the Belgic confession, the marks of the church, the preaching of the word, the administration of of the sacraments, and the discipline of the church. If your church is practicing those things, you may not want to leave,

right? [clears throat]

That might not be well, you know, they don't do it the way perhaps I'd like them to. Okay. Well, maybe there's a church practicing those things better, [snorts] but sometimes people leave churches for very poor reasons.

If your church is preaching the truth and the church is disciplining through ongoing, you know, formative discipline with the word and corrective discipline when people color outside the lines, they're administering the sacraments. Then bless God, you're in a church. Is it everything that you would pro possibly desire it to be? Probably not.

But again, if we got exactly what we wanted on this side of heaven, we wouldn't long for heaven.

There's, you know, everybody's got preferences.

I've got preferences. There's things I'd like to change if it was up to Jim and his preference day at our church, but I know it's not my church. I know it's not my my project. It's Christ's.

We need to obey Christ and we need to do it in a way that brings glory to Christ. So sometimes persons leave churches for less than stellar reasons. But then sometimes people stay at churches for less than stellar reasons as well. If your church is not faithfully preaching the truth, if your church subordinates Jesus and in in theology, if your church teaches justification by faith plus works,

it might be time for you to leave that church.

So, yeah, there's some hasty departures, but there's also some times where persons should have departed a long time ago because your church is is is dead or your church is corrupt or your church is heretical. Yeah.

So you know [clears throat] functionally or fundamentally what is a church? What is the marks of a church? What is a church supposed to be?

And I think that helps then shape, guide and direct you as to whether or not I should stay where I'm at or I should pursue something else.

Mhm.

Yeah. It's all subjective things because I've seen people get caught up with the subject of family and friends and I've been there for my family's been there for 100 years, whatever. Right. But

and you know, people are different.

Pe people are different. And I get that. And I have to be patient with that as a pastor because

for me, if if I had a doctor that [snorts] was great at his job, but he had no bedside manner, I'd be fine with that.

I I don't need bedside manner from my doctor. I have a wife for that.

I have friends. I have other relations to fulfill those needs. I want the most steady hand,

the most bright mind navigating whatever my malady may be.

Conversely, or the same with reference to if I was a member at a church and my pastor preached the word,

that's what I'm there for.

Yeah,

sure, [clears throat] if he wants to have coffee with me and say nice things to me, I'll take it. But I'm there for the preaching of the word of God.

And that to me is absolutely crucial. Now, I think that others are there for the preaching of the word and having that coffee with the pastor. And again, I'm not picking on them, but everybody's got to see in their own value system what is imperative, what is most important. And for me, it's does the guy preach?

Yeah.

And do they, you know, administer the sacraments properly?

And do they discipline people when they need discipline? Because if they they do those things, then bless God, I'm in a church.

Yeah.

So I I think basic definitions are very helpful. Yeah.

To help us when it comes time to either stay at or leave a church.

Yeah.

Mhm.

But yeah,

and I think Cam Cam, you know, hits the nail on the head. Somebody can avow or affirm, yeah, we're confessional.

But if you go to that church and you never hear anything that is uniquely confessional and and again confessional means biblical. So you you gota but but if you go to a church that yeah we hold the second London and they're preaching dispensationalism or they're preaching progressive covenantalism. You're not

you know and again I'm not demonizing those positions but I'm saying you can't say you're confessional if you're not teaching what the confession teaches. You can't say you affirm chapter 8 in our confession and have some category of a subordinate Jesus when it comes to theology.

You cannot say that just like you cannot say I hold the calcidon and I hold the na and yet I've got gradation or you know of persons within the trinity or I've got three separate wills or three you know distinct conscious consciousnesses. you can't get

get settled because the websites and the the statements there is all could be it's like a marketing thing that somebody could have done five 10 years ago the guys in the pulpit they're filling they're getting

some right people but they're from other seminaries and they haven't looked at the website they haven't vetted [clears throat] the people coming in their pulpit

and I say this too if you're going to look for a new church give give it a couple of months

every I'm sure in your business you have a bad day

I'm sure in your business, you have a bad day. Pastors can have bad days on a Sunday. You wouldn't think it, but they can.

And he may go and shovel, you know, gravel down your throats for a sermon. And if you popped in there that time and so that church is terrible, or nobody nobody greeted me, you know, maybe it was a oneoff.

Maybe everybody in the church that day had a bad day. You really can't know something. I I would suggest a couple of months if you're going to make, you know, and this goes to something that I think is even less appreci appreciated. Church and where we go to church is one of the biggest decisions of our lives.

Mhm.

You know, who will we marry?

How many children are we going to have? Where are we going to send them to school? All those are big questions. But where am I going to go to church?

It it takes some reflection.

It takes some examination. It takes some pondering. It takes some, you know, getting to know the the the pastor, getting to know the ministry, getting to know the brethren. If you can't do that on a Sunday morning, I I just don't think it's possible cuz again, bad day or maybe it was a great day and otherwise the guy's terrible, you know? [laughter] So, so give it some time.

These are huge decisions. Where am I going to bring my wife and children in terms of church life? Is the worship reverent? Is it is it biblical?

Is the preaching sound? Is there gospel emphasis? Especially as a father raising children. One of the the best things I can do is let my kids to a good church on the Lord's day where the gospel is going to be preached regularly and consistently.

And the pastor is going to, you know, call upon sinners to believe and repent. I want my children in that. I want to bring them up in that. whether there's [clears throat] programs for them or whether there's nights for them or I again don't care. I care that they're hearing an earnest in treaty on the Lord's day morning to come to Jesus and be saved.

That to me is far more valuable.

Yeah.

Amen.

Okay. So this next question changes gears a bit from where we were with talking about planting churches, transitioning, choosing a church. Um so

Faith and Assurance

what's the difference between faith and assurance? [laughter]

That's a big change.

Very big change. Um I'll just Yeah. Context is I appreciate that we have separate chapters on that in the confession which is for a reason, right?

I think so. That's great.

Yeah.

Yeah. And uh I've been translating this book from Dutch uh which gets into the the differences as well and that's been really helpful. But yeah, I think it's uh a lot of people don't understand this. It's just

it's all the same and they're like, "Am I saved or not?" Right.

Um

go ahead.

How would you explain that

difference between faith and assurance?

Sure.

Yeah. Well, I think uh I think it's important out of the gates to establish that a Christian may have the one without uh immediately having the other. In other words, every Christian has faith, but not every Christian has assurance. The Bible sets forth both as well well one of course as the the inescapable reality for for every Christian.

Christians are those who believe. They are those who have faith. They have heard the gospel declared that there is a glorious Christ who has come into this world, sinners to save. That by his death, burial, and resurrection, everyone who believes on him will have everlasting life.

And so our our faith rests upon that glorious object, that glorious subject. Those who uh are Christians are those who have faith. And so the the question then comes, okay, are those who are Christians then or must Christians then necessarily or else they're not Christians have assurance? And the the the the Bible the the the Bible says no that it's not a prerequisite for our salvation as if assurance is part and parcel of the faith that one must have in order to have everlasting life.

The Bible does set it forth as something that the Christian um is to seek after and and to rejoice in. If we look at the the Gospel of John, for example, or let's just say the writings of John, we we have in his gospel near near the end of his gospel in chapter 20, sort of a a summary statement that he gives with regards to what the purpose of his writing was for. It was so that those who read the gospel or who hear it preached might believe that Jesus is the Christ and that they have life in his name. And then when we get to his epistles, we see, for example, in first John in chapter 5, he writes there that he's writing those things to those who believe in the son of God that they might know that they have everlasting life in the sun.

So, so John really treats both subjects. He treats the believing on Jesus and he treats that assurance that we may have in our belief on the Lord Jesus Christ. And so I think getting back to the the you know the the the marrow of the question or the matter and the simplicity of the the question the difference between faith um and assurance. Faith is believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. uh believing in the the glorious one who came into this world sinners to save.

Uh uh assurance is the the the the grip upon that the certain reality the the uh the infallible hope that we have in the Lord Jesus Christ that we most surely are those who have that faith and will at the last be found everlastingly with him. So I I I think it's important to distinguish not only between the definitions of faith and assurance but also with regards to the fact that one is necessary for a Christian uh and the other is held forth as possible for that Christian who has faith to enjoy.

Amen.

Yeah, Jim, anything?

Yeah, I think that's good. I think it's important though that that believers do seek assurance.

If you know somebody may be a believer in Jesus and not have assurance. So what happens?

They're always looking at themselves to see whether or not they're a believer in Jesus. Well, I'm sure the devil loves that. Be sidetracked. Be sidelined.

Sit with yourself and stew versus look and live. Trust that what scripture says concerning the person and the work of the Lord Jesus Christ is true. I'm a sinner. I've come by God's grace.

I believe what scripture says at some level at some basic foundational level. [snorts] That's what assurance is. I believe the Bible is true. Sure, there's fruit. I'm living a godly life.

There's fruit. I'm not living the ungodly life I used to. There's fruit in the sense of I want to be at church and all that, but if you boil it all down, it it is a looking to Christ. It is a believing on Christ and believing that everything the Bible says is true with reference to that looking to Christ.

Mhm.

Right.

The chapter on saving faith, we believe everything the Bible teaches, but the principal acts of saving faith have to do with the person and the work of the Lord Jesus Christ. Mhm.

So, [clears throat] you know, assurance, we we're probably thinking of some churches that we are familiar with that people come out of or stay in and they struggle constantly with assurance. Seems to me the answer for those people is just more Jesus.

Less them, more Jesus, less introspection, less fruit searching, uh less all of that, and more look and live. Trust that what scripture says concerning the Savior is true and then be done with it and move on in the fear of the Lord and the comfort of the Holy Spirit and serve him and glorify him and [clears throat] then watch your assurance grow.

You you you've put it the onus on you or your performance or things that might measure up in a church context.

No, no, it's always about looking to Christ. Get on with it.

Amen. Yeah, I I I you know and a lot of the onus is is on the believer of course.

Uh there's some onus of course on the pastor on the preacher as well. What what are his emphasis with regards to faith and assurance I like what our confession says actually prior to the chapter on assurance.

So in chapter 17 of the perseverance of the saints, if we ask the question, what does perseverance depend upon? Our our preservation by God, but also what is the the summon substance, the ground and foundation of our assurance? We read in in paragraph 2 of chapter 17, this perseverance of the saints and and we may also say this uh infallible assurance of hope depends not upon their own free will but upon the immutability of the decree of election flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father, upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ and union with him, the oath of God, the abiding of his spirit, and the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace, from which ariseth from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof. As [clears throat] Jim is saying, if we if we're pointed to or if we point ourselves to put it this way, if we look inwardly, if we look with one eye upon Christ and one eye inwardly, looking inside for the motions of the spirit and the evidences and the the the things, the the the deeds, the thoughts and and that sort of a thing. and we're not looking principally at Christ as the ground of our preservation and as the ground of our infallible and certain hope of assurance, then we're we're faltering.

And the the pastor or the preacher that points us to that points us in any direction other than the triune God, the mediator Jesus Christ, and the perfection and exclusivity of his salvation as the foundation for our faith and assurance. um the the then something is wrong with the system. Something's wrong with the preacher and and something's wrong with the believer who is either being directed elsewhere or himself or herself is is getting carried off by by faulty thoughts of where our perseverance and where our assurance most truly and certainly rests. And that's in God in his Christ and the perfection of of amazing and victorious grace. And I don't doubt that persons struggle with assurance.

They do. It's the reality, you know, dispositionally by nature. Some are, you know, tend that way. Melancholic spirits.

But for a church to address a lack of assurance and almost present it as noble.

It's good that you struggle.

It's good that that seems to strip away the simplicity of the gospel. Look and live.

Yeah.

Not it's good that you struggle. It's, you know, proof that probably the the seed of faith is there.

Well, that [clears throat] is bizarre rational rationale or bizarre reasoning. Look and live.

You knew you lived because you looked by God's grace and you were healed from the bite of that fiery serpent.

Yeah.

Oh, it's good that you really don't believe that you were healed from that fiery serpent. No, you've been healed. Now move on and live like you've been healed.

I don't know. I just think it's weird.

Yeah.

It's like you're getting through the gate and sitting there, but you're not going to be a healthy, productive soldier.

Exactly.

In the army,

pick up your gun and move on and combat the enemies.

Yeah. [clears throat] You got to move past the the bottle feeding to seems they want that perpetual sort of that perpetual adolescent state. Yeah. But yeah, I've been doing this project to analyze hundreds of these sermons and it's about a third of it is this introspection and nothing to really help encourage people to grow in grace and knowledge and being productive.

Oh yeah.

Yeah.

It's it's bizarre.

Yeah. Um yeah, I also had an email conversation with somebody I think who reached out because of these videos.

I'm not sure. His name is Andrew in the US somewhere. Can't remember exactly where he is, but he's like, "Am I saved? I'm getting these wicked thoughts coming in my mind." and it just shared some of them and

Mhm.

just vile things, right?

He's like, "Am I saved or wrong?" I'm like, "No, go back.

You're looking to Christ, right?" And not

your perfection of your thoughts isn't your

Yeah. I mean, I'd love to say that every Christian, no Christian has ever had a wicked thought, [clears throat] you know? I mean, that's unfortunately part of life in a fallen world. Even as Christians, we have remaining corruption.

Exactly.

The answer still is the same. lucky and live.

Mhm. And and that reality drives us back to Christ. The struggle that the Christian has. It it grieves me and and I know it grieves you Jim as well.

I'll speak for you. For those who come to Romans 7 who are who are Christian pastors, uh preachers, theologians, and who treat Paul there as unconverted.

Um I I think that's that can be soul destroying or it can certainly cast a burden upon uh a Christian that ought not to be cast. uh Paul there says the good that I want to do I I I find myself not doing the evil that I don't want to do I find myself doing and what does this do this reality this struggle it it drives him to the savior it drives him to his God it drives him to his Christ you know praise be Christ who has brought me forth from the deadness of sin to life in him whereby I can be in a position that I struggle with my thoughts. I struggle with my deeds. I'm seeking to be one who conducts himself in a manner worthy of that gospel by which I have been saved.

So that's that that's never a cause for despair. Not that we relish in sin, that we relish in remaining corruption, but but the the the very existence and presence of the struggle is encouraging because that means there's a struggle that that that Christian, that believer recognizes his or her sin and and recognizes Christ as their savior. It's the one who has saved them a and as the one they they have as their exemplar for conduct in this lower world until we to get until we get to the the beatitude of glory.

Amen. Amen.

Yeah.

It's bizarre.

Yeah. We're just just reading Romans 7 the family the other morning. I just saw that. So Paul is saying,

"Oh wretched man that I am

who will deliver me from this body of death."

The next part we don't really remember.

I thank God through Jesus Christ as our Lord.

Jesus Christ. I know

he's with me. He's going to deliver me. And we got glory coming.

And I'm I'm not going to I'm not going to panic.

I'm going to keep looking. I'm going to seek to mortify by the spirit the deeds of the flesh.

But I'm not going to conclude

that because these remaining corruption is in me, I must not be saved.

No. I thank God through our Lord Jesus.

Mhm. Yeah.

Um, so

God's Love for the Non-Elect

does God love the unregenerate or non-elect?

Um, so I guess so can we say Jesus loves you to people we meet on the street or wherever, right? To unbelievers. Can we say that?

Yeah. Well, I think I think out of the gate we we ought to recognize that the gospel has unfortunately been contorted or distorted or dissolved into that sort of a thing where the message is God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life.

The the the warrant on which a sinner is called to come is never God loves you. it it's always the command of God and the promise of God that the one who believes on the Lord Jesus Christ will not be ashamed will will be saved. Um and it's it it rests upon the the warrant to come rests upon the ability and the willingness uh of the savior not on this idea that that god loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life. If we look at the biblical evidence, if we look at what the Bible says with regards to gospel proclamation, take for example the the acts of the apostles, uh what do we find in to be the the con the the content the the constituent pieces of the proclamation of the gospel? It's never God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life. uh it's always [snorts] immediately and intimately connected to the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

That is the gospel. In fact, in 1 Corinthians 15, the Apostle Paul defines the gospel as such. the the gospel that I proclaim to you in which you stand, that which you believed, uh that which I chiefly proclaim to you as the central message of Christianity is that Christ died for your sins, the sins of the believer, that he was buried, and that he rose again uh uh according to the scriptures. And so that's the gospel proclamation. And so in the book uh of acts for example when we see the apostles going about preaching the Christian message preaching the gospel it is that that this this man Jesus Christ attested to you by miracles signs and wonders which he did in your midst.

He is very God and very man one Christ the only mediator between God and men. And the gospel message is concerned with his death, burial and resurrection for the for the salvation of sinners. And that is the warrant upon which sinners are called to come. The the perfection, the ability, the willingness of the savior who came into this world, sinners to save, not in this uh this weird, you know, sort of plat platitudinous universalistic approach that that God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life.

And you it might sound mean. Okay, does that mean that does that mean that we can't tell sinners that God loves them? Well, I you know, I think it's important to see what the Bible says with regards to the love of God. You know, in fact, the Bible does speak about the holy hatred of God, with regards to with regards to sinners.

We we read in the Bible that he he hates the workers of iniquity. He he's angry with with the sinner every day. So is it is it a responsible act upon the part of the Christian evangelist upon the part of the the Christian preacher to to say universalistically and and without any sort of qualification that God loves every individual before whom they stand? I I don't think it is um the the the Bible speaks to to the the unrivaled and unmmitigated holiness of God and his hatred for those who transgress his law.

So to come out of the gates in our Christian proclamation with God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life um is in in fact and interestingly the absence of love exercised by that Christian to the one before whom they're speaking because they're they're distorting what the Bible says with regards to uh God, his purposes, the nature of God, the the nature of the decrees, the nature of the gospel and and what the gospel itself is that you know I think it's um it might be important to observe that theologians have recognized a a way to approach the love of God as exercised in a grand expression to all of his creation. Um, some some will parse out [snorts] divine love in a in a three-fold manner or some have historically parsed out divine love in uh the love of benevolence, the fact that God has a will for the goodness of his creation. Uh the love of beneficence, the fact of God actually, you know, visiting and conferring goodness upon his creation. Uh and then the love of complacency where we actually see uh more what we're speaking of with regards to God's particular love for the elect, the actual reality of God uh of God delighting in and pouring out his love upon those who are the object of his love.

Um, Gil, Gil, for example, would would take sort of those those first two categories of love and call them more God's general sort of providential goodness. And I think that's a careful way of of doing it. God has this general uh providential goodness and condescension that he shows to his creation. Um we we we know the verses.

The sun shines on the evil and the good. The rain falls upon the just uh and the unjust. There is this general providential goodness that God pours out upon his creation. But then there is that special and particular love that God has for his elect.

Um, not for the the unregenate unregenerate generally concerned as sinners and not for the reprobate of course, but with respect specifically to the elect seen as those who before the foundation of the world God has determined to in time pour out his grace and his mercy upon by virtue of the perfection of the work of the Lord Jesus Christ. Um, and so getting back to the the heart of the matter and the the simplicity of the question. Um, the the gospel message is not God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life. Um, it is that we have all sinned and we have fallen short of the glory of God.

That there is a triune God in high heaven who cannot look upon sin approvingly without having to punish it. And he has he has dealt with sin either in the the the death of his son or he deals with sin in the everlasting banishment and punishment of sinners who will be cast out of his sight. And so the the blessedness of the gospel message um is found in the fact that God has condescended in the person of the son to secure the salvation of a multitude that no man can can number from every tribe, tongue, people, and nation by his death, burial, and resurrection that he rendered perfectly for the salvation of sinners. And it's those saved sinners that God has that special and peculiar and electing love for those who are found in the Son, not having their own righteousness which is from the law, but that which is from God through faith in Christ.

Good.

Amen.

That's good.

That's what the Bible says.

We're messed up. The world is messed up. But God so loved the world [clears throat]

that he sent his son.

Yeah.

Yeah. And you know, think think what the think what the message does when we say to a sinner indiscriminately to anyone in front of us, God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life.

Um [snorts] that that puts the the glory, the the majesty, the the you know the beauty on the person who then is loved. um not upon the God who condescends and not upon the Christ who is the sum and substance of the gospel. Uh you know God loves me and has a wonderful plan for my life. I I must be lovable uh and I must be worthy of this you know divine favor that's that's exercised towards me. Um whereas you know that one to whom [snorts] the proper Christian message is spoken needs to hear of that holy God, of their sin, of the just punishment for sin, and of the blessedness of the Savior who came in to to save sinners perfectly. [snorts]

Good.

Yeah.

I think it's important to use the language the Bible uses.

Yeah. Just [clears throat] stick to it because it's it's sufficient.

Amen.

That's right. was the other one was having a discussion with somebody this week about saying, "Hey, can you accept Jesus?" Bible doesn't use that word.

Um, I think it's okay. Maybe you disagree, but either we we reject him or we accept him, right? We receive just I don't I just use as a synonym for receive, but

some people have a problem with that language,

accepting.

And maybe because it's been abused of accepting Jesus into your heart and

Yeah. I'm [clears throat] sure it's a reaction to

bad uses of it,

right? [snorts] Yeah,

but it's okay that, you know, it's not my favorite and but I'm not going to say you're therefore messed up, right? I mean, we we should be able to

have differences in a confessional context and still love each other and not lose sleep over it.

Whim likes accept. [laughter]

No, I'll never think that of you.

Thank you.

Okay.

Angels and Demonic Spirits

How powerful are the angels? Um, I put this question in there cuz it doesn't we don't talk it about much. And I think the angels,

we actually underestimate

their power and their purpose and how many [clears throat] there are

like there's millions of them.

Before he begins, cuz I'm definitely deferring. Uh, Dr.

James Dole did a podcast in on theology in particular on angels and um I've I have not listened to it

but I have [clears throat] heard that it was fantastic.

Yeah.

My son Joshua has said that it would be a good thing for his mother and I to listen to. So for listeners out there, Dr. James Dole, who we continue to pray for,

um him having had this uh accident or having been hit,

but apparently it's just gold. Excellent stuff.

Yeah.

Yeah. No, I I agree. And I IRBs, the the seminary that that we support uh as a church and that's near and dear to us. They they recently over the last couple years or a few years have introduced an elective course on the doctrine of angels that James him James Dozal, Dr.

James Dozal himself had uh had taught previously. It's I think a one credit course that they offer um sort of pulling the the doctrine of angels from out of the context of the larger doctrine of creation and and and treating it separately in an elective course. So yeah, very very good. Uh Dr.

Dozal is excellent on on this topic.

So there's a lot of them and they're real powerful.

Yeah, that's right. [laughter] Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. So I'd say devils are all over the place, right?

Like I believe there's devils here cuz they're they want to pick away the word and confuse and distract and make our minds wander, right?

Yeah.

But are the angels, they're they're both spirits,

right?

Um so they're ever as well, right?

Yeah. Yeah. You know, I mean, with the angels, I mean, you said it, the the uh it's an interesting topic. It's an intrigu It's an intriguing topic.

The Bible speaks about angels. And so I I think the Christians to one degree or another ought to to know something about them.

Um you know they're they have been created for the glory of God. Um you know their their ultimate created purpose is uh you know to attend unto the throne and and sing the the glories of the triune God. We see that in in places like Isaiah 6.

Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God of hosts. The whole earth is filled with his glory. They they fly and they they remark concerning the the unmitigated majesty and glory of God. And the Bible also says that they they do have a a particular service or or ministerial purpose as well.

Uh for example, in the in the book of Hebrews in in verse 14 of chapter 1, we read Paul saying that they are ministering spirits sent to minister [snorts] to those who will inherit salvation. So the the Christians ought not to be strangers to angels um in the sense of knowing about them uh understanding them. Yeah. I think there can be a there can be a prevailing mania that can exist within popular culture with regards to obsession

and an unhealthy [clears throat] obsession with regards to to angels.

Uh but the Bible does speak about them and I think we ought to to know something about them.

Amen.

Yeah. And the same with demonic spirits. I mean, obviously you you do don't want to get preoccupied in a

be be caught up in that, but but realize there are nefarious forces. We don't wrestle against flesh and blood.

There are principalities. There are powers. There's a [snorts] wonderful little book by um Carl Truman on Martin Luther and just how Martin Luther was a medieval monk and they saw a demon behind every bush, you know, and there there was that consciousness that there was a spiritual battle.

And I have to admit, for my own part, I don't always think that same way. I don't I mean I know they're out there and I know that they're opposers of truth and Christ and

probably [snorts] at our church services versus anywhere else because they like you mentioned or referred to they want to pick that seed like the birds of the air lest people hear it and believe and be saved.

So to consciously think of that opposition I think is necessary and I think it is helpful to sort of define the boundaries of of what we're doing.

Mhm. But yeah, I mean I'm I'm not I you know and it probably owes to some some semblance of you know had I come out of a P Pentecostal background some of them have a more def [snorts] defined sort of appro approach to these things which I just didn't have.

Yeah. Yeah.

So I'm you know trying to learn and and not be caught up or consumed with but mindful of I think is probably the better way to be.

Yeah.

Yeah. And you know the the Bible does speak it or it it presents it narrates it captures some exciting things with regards to to angels in the in the history of the nation of Israel.

For example, I think it in second Kings and it's repeated in the book of Isaiah about a a single angel who slayed 185,000 Assyrian soldiers in in one night.

You know, you asked the question, are angels powerful?

Yes, they are powerful. More powerful than men. Uh definitely uh obviously not as powerful as God. They're they're created spirits.

Um but being uh you know unbounded by the the the corporality that we have, the material nature that we have, um they they're powerful. They're they they know more. They can do more. Uh and they are strong beings, the the angels themselves in in service to God and in uh ministering to to his people.

Um we we have these created uh mighty ones the Bible calls them that that are on our side. Um you know without getting into some sort of uh unhealthy speculation actually there's a there's a quote by Turin that he uses and I think it's actually in the context of of learning about and studying angels. He said it's better to be ignorant without crime than to search with peril.

Whi- which is good in any head of theology. Um but but on this topic as well, you know, what what can we know and what can we not know about angels?

But what we do know, what the Bible sets forth is uh is quite an exciting picture. They're they're strange. They're they're they're mighty. Um they're servants of God and they're they're ministers to those who will inherit salvation.

Yeah.

Yeah. Just looking at Luke 2 verse I missed my reading glasses. I don't know why I forgot them. But Luke 2:13

um with the birth of incarnation or the birth of Jesus, suddenly there was with the angel with So there was one angel, but with him was a multitude of the heavenly host.

Yeah.

Right.

Um praising God.

Yeah.

And speaking.

Yeah.

Amen.

Yeah.

And you know that's it goes back to their ultimate purpose. That's the ultimate purpose of the heavenly host is to, you know, to attend the throne and and and praise God and and and in that they're very instructive and serve as exemplars for the saints of God for for Christians.

You know, the [clears throat] the the angels are our example with regards to what uh what one of the the main thing is with regards to creation, the cosmos, and all it contains. It's the the display of the glory of God. It's the triune God showing forth his glory, his might, his divine purposes, his his good pleasure um in creation, in providence, and in the salvation of sinners.

Amen.

Yep.

And I'm just thinking of the book that CS Lewis wrote, like Screw Tape Letters.

Mhm.

Probably that one.

That's a great book.

Yeah,

that's a really excellent little book.

Yeah. I haven't read the whole thing, but bits and pieces and close, but it's good. the the mind the the strategy is very helpful.

Yeah.

How would a senior demon communicate to a junior demon?

Yeah.

And it really does provoke thought and it does show that there are things going on behind the scenes. It was very helpful book.

Yeah.

Every day, everywhere, every interaction.

Yeah.

Those devils aren't sitting out in the desert somewhere where there's nobody.

Exactly.

They're not sitting on the mountain tops. They're around people

by the hundreds or whatever, right?

Yeah.

But then he was going to write a book apparently on angels and then

um as some people explained it to me, um

he's like just couldn't do it

because you can kind of imagine what devils do cuz that's in her heart is sin and rebellion, right?

There's some connection there. [laughter] I don't know what a perfectly holy being can, right?

Right.

That's that's that's perceptive. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] the uh but yeah these devils so I was going to do this as two questions we'll just cover it as one right um kind of goes together right because devils are fallen angels

um

is actually with angels we got this picture they've all got wings and stuff right and the devils we got we imagine they got horns and a pitchfork

right yeah

they don't neither of them do

they're spirit beings they're created spirit beings that the Bible does speak to the fact that that angels instrumentally use material things in order to to manifest themselves and and to communicate. Of course, under God's sovereignty and providence, instruction and guidance, but you know, yeah, angels are spirit beings.

They they don't have wings. you know, when we see them depicted with wings and when we see them uh uh or read of them depicted as having wings or of course, you know, within uh within medieval art and those sorts of things when they they have wings, I I I think it's just indicative of their their swiftness, their speed, the the manner by which they can they can move from one place to another. They're they're they're unconstrained by the materiality and the corpority that that humans are. Um, and so they, you know, speaking to their power, they they can move quicker than we can. I I know that the, you know, the medievals and Thomas and others have mused over what angels can and can't do.

Um, but yeah, I I think we can conclude that because they are unconstrained by the the the the bounds that we are constrained by, um, those wings depict their their fleetness in the service of God and in the the the ministering to the saints. and they don't get sore lower backs, [laughter] you know. I mean, kind of connected is Al Martin has some some stuff for ministers and burnout and says, "You're not disembodied spirits. You're not angels. You need rest.

You need good food. You need exercise." You know, there's a there's a distinction between

a created spirit being versus created spirit body beings.

Mhm.

We're not angels.

Yeah.

And they're not us. So, yeah, they're swift cuz they don't, you know, hurt their knees.

That's right. Yeah.

Yeah.

There there are some are some differences.

We need to appreciate that. I mean, they don't need 8 hours of sleep or 7 hours of sleep. They don't, you know, we cannot do the work of an angel.

And at times it's intrigued me. I if I I mean it seems smart to me to use angels to preach the gospel.

They never get it wrong.

They're smarter. They got more energy. But God and his infinite wisdom took earth and wear vessels and put that gospel treasure in them to communicate that truth to others. Yeah.

So [snorts]

it's his purpose and plan.

That's right.

Yeah. And I think that the the caricature of the devil with the horns and the pitchfork, as I understand, it was medieval sort of picking at the devil. It was to,

you know, he's a being that's proud and arrogant.

So, it's a caricature and a, you know, putting making him look foolish really.

Right. Whereas, you know,

I I don't think for a moment that he's got

a pitchfork and horns and and a cape, but that's the modern conception.

I think it is owing [clears throat] to that, you know, let's depict him this way as a way to make fun of him and pick at him.

Yeah. [snorts] Um, but I I think they show up in in people where I show up in pulpit even and they look polished and charismatic and friendly and everything, but it's bad doctrine and everything.

That's just

Yeah. It's tough for me though to know. I mean, there's just a lot of dumb men out there or evil men that may it may not be a demon. He may just be a wretch.

Yeah.

So, you know, it for me that part's always been hard to parse out, right? like what is,

you know, this guy's an actual demon or he's demonfilled in espousing heresy or he's just a you know?

I mean, not that being a is somehow okay, but it's not as bad as being demon fil. I mean, it would take a lot for me to get to the point where I would say to somebody, I think you're under, you know, demonic possession.

Mhm. But some people have such a strong unbelief that it's beyond just normal. It's like there I think there's a Bible text that there's a spirit of unbelief.

It's a demon on its own that can fill somebody, right?

There's so

so much bitterness, anger,

offense at the gospel.

Yeah. And you know, back to that Luther thing, a demon behind every bush. I've met charismatics for people that came out of that background and and and it can be overdone as well. Oh, there's a demon of, you know, rainy days.

You know, it it can get bizarre.

And, you know, and and and if you give a sinner the opportunity to blame something, he usually will. Oh, it's this demon. No, no, it's you. You're a wretch.

You need to repent and forsake your sin.

And if I ever thought I did meet somebody that was demonpossessed, the answer is always the same. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

That's right.

Yeah. Yeah. You ever walked into one of these little shops where it's like all the witchcraft stuff and Halloween and all this stuff?

You're like I think there's one in in town here.

Um like you step one step in you're like no I'm out. It's just so dark and you're like this is so wicked.

Where is it in town?

I think it's right in by 1881.

1881. Yeah. There's one in

the witchcraft store.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Witchy Boo Boo or something like that.

Is it really?

I think so. Like in the shop area or on the main street? one of the little back alleys. One of those new places.

The back alleys. Yeah.

I usually

And it just smells weird, right?

It's like

like incense and whatnot. [snorts]

Yeah. These these devils are powerful, but yet James says, "Resist the devil and he will

I know.

Flee from you."

Yeah.

And full full stop.

That's it.

It's a simple strategy.

Yeah.

All right. So, not sure who wants to take this one on. Do Christians, Jews, and Muslims all serve the same God?

Like they all say they follow the God of Abraham.

Mhm.

Um there's one God, a creator. Um

no other brother.

No, they do not. They do not follow the same God. In fact, Jesus makes that abundantly clear in the upper room discourse when he's speaking specifically with reference to unbelieving Jews in John 15:21, which by the way, John 15:1, Jesus highlights that he is the true vine.

That language of vine was applied to old covenant Israel often times in a in in judgment contexts. But Jesus says in John 15:1, I am the true vine and my father is the vine dresser. So all the covenant promises of God essentially, well they are yay and amen in Jesus. And I think that's what he's emphasizing there.

But specifically later in John 15 at verse 21, he says, "But all these things they will do to you for my name's sake because they do not know him who sent me."

Okay, so they're going to persecute you. He's cautioning beginning in 15:18, if the world hates you, you know that it hated me before it hated you. So he's cautioning his disciples about the opposition of the world. And I would think and I I believe that the world here specifically is the world that includes unbelieving Jews.

I think that's verified in 16 162. They will put you out of the synagogues. Yes, the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God's service and these things they will do to you because they have not known the father nor me. So backing up to verse 23 in chapter 15, he who hates me hates my father also.

So the idea is is that if you reject the one sent by the father, then you hate the father who sent the son. So there's no way you can convince me in light of our Lord's words that Jews and Christians serve the same God. Earlier in John's gospel in John chapter 8, of course, Jesus is combating not Muslims, not Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons, but unbelieving Jews. I'm not trying to sound vicious or offensive or horrible.

I'm just you you asked the simple question, do Christians and Jews worship the same God? No. So in John uh 8 verse 37, I know that you are Abraham's descendants according to the flesh. Ethnicity that you know Abraham's blood at some level runs in their veins, but you seek to kill me because my word has no place in you.

I speak what I have seen with my father and you do what you have seen with your father." They answered and said to him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If Abra if if you were Abraham's children, you would you would do the works of Abraham. But now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth which I heard from God." Abraham did not do this. You do the deeds of your father. Then they said to him, "We were not born of fornication.

We have one father, God." Jesus said to them, "If God were your father, you would love me, for I proceeded forth and came from God, nor have I come of myself, but he sent me. Why do you not understand my speech? Because you are not able to listen to my word. You are of your father, the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do.

He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources for he is a liar and the father of it. So our Lord did not say that, you know, unbelieving Israel had the same God. There is but one only, the living and true God who has existed eternally as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

To [clears throat] deny the Trinity is to deny the living and the true God.

And you say, well, you know, the Old Testament did teach the doctrine of the Trinity.

It's like Warfield's classic example. You know, you've got a a darkened chamber that's filled with furniture. The furniture was always there in the old covenant. [clears throat] And at times lights were on and lights did flicker. Yahweh said to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand till I make your enemies your foottool." That's [snorts] definitely a glimpse of the son of God as you know God.

The [snorts] the reference to the Lord Jesus in Isaiah the prophet in chapter chapter 9 at verse 6. It's these are predicates that are made only concerning divinity. So, so all that that furniture was in the chamber. The new covenant comes and flips the light on beautifully, but it doesn't put the furniture.

The furniture was always there. So Jesus denies that the unbelieving Jews and the Christians have the same God.

He just he does unequivocally. So to maintain that we do have the same God is a vicious vicious thing. I I think you're not doing them any favors.

You tell them, look, you need to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

You need to come to Jesus for the forgiveness of sins. We'd say that to Muslims as well.

Muslims say that Jesus was a prophet. I mean, they esteem him in certain ways as a as a prophet.

Well, no. He's the son of God who definitely fulfills a prophetic ministry, but he tells you, "Come to me that you may have everlasting life." And he is, you know, superior to the Old Testament prophets.

He is superior to to to Moses. He is superior to all

and especially Muhammad. So, you really need to come to that one who speaks the voice of God

to to believe on him and to be saved. So now this this this idea because we're Abrahamic religions, we're we're all, you know, the same God.

That cannot be shown in the New Testament. That cannot be demonstrated in scripture. It is an un unfortunate thing that attaches itself somehow to monotheistic religions. But if your God isn't the the God defined in scripture as father, son, and holy spirit, you don't have God.

You have an idol. Yeah. So,

yeah. Very good. [snorts]

Yeah.

Very super clear.

Okay. So, yeah. Next question is,

Literal Six-Day Creation

why does a literal six day creation matter? Um, and I guess the sub question is evolution compatible with the gospel? Um, kind of a correlary or um question to that.

And so, next year, so we're recording this in August 2026 and um we'll be opening up registration in the next couple months for the conference. in April next year.

9th and 10th.

9th and 10th. Okay.

Got to add it to my calendar yet. So, do that now. Save the date. April 9th and 10th here in Chilowak.

And this will be it'll be our fourth year. And so, we're on to chapter 4 of creation.

Yes.

Um short chapter, but obviously very important like all the chapters. So, yeah. Why why is it important and not a secondary tertiary

Mhm.

topic?

Yeah.

Well, I think the first reason that it's important is because of the trustworthiness of divine revelation.

Amen. [snorts]

Uh God has clearly revealed that the the cosmos, the world and and all things therein, all things visible and invisible were created in the space of six literal days and all very good. And so if we you know if we you know consign the creation account to some sort of literary genre that uh isn't really speaking um properly as a narrative of the creation week or if we you know if we if we do anything other than affirm the the simplicity of God's condescension in revealing the creation week um then we yeah we We cast aside the trustworthiness of divine revelation. God said it.

Uh God spoke. God uh provides the inspired account of the creation week.

And uh and you know and there we have it. Um and and I think as well the doctrine of a literal six day creation matters for the purpose of upholding the purpose of the cosmos in all things. Wh what um what is the reason for the creation of all things? It it's in order to show forth the glory of the triune God in the salvation of sinners by Jesus Christ.

When we look at when we look at creation, you know, well, let's just look at it this way. Um, if we were to say what, you know, the the naturalistic humanists say or actually let's say what some so-called Christians, professing Christians say with regards to uh the the billions of years approach that God used evolution uh for his purposes in in this lower world. Well, it it it it casts aside or it it it it does damage to what we could say the is the cristo redemptive purpose to creation and providence. There is a Christ and redemption purpose to creation.

If we look at the the order of decrees, really, however you might fall out with regards to the order of the decrees, God before the foundation of the world, determined according to to his sovereign will and good pleasure to uh to perfectly save a multitude of sinners from every tribe, tongue, people, and nation by the doing, dying, and rising again of the son of God incarnated. And in order to bring about those particular purposes, he creates he well first he decrees the creation of the amphitheater of redemption uh where he will bring about those holy and glorious ends. And so the the the creation account, you know, doesn't it, you know, necessarily serve an end on its own. uh as glorious as it is, as true as it is, as um you know, true to the divine purpose that it is, it it serves that crystal redemptive purpose of saving a multitude by the the the perfection of the work of Christ. Uh and so uh yeah, a literal 6 day creation matters because of the trustworthiness of divine revelation and because of the purpose that the cosmos and its governing providence serves, which is the end of the salvation of sinners unto the glory of God.

Amen. And it seems to me to be a a cause for or a reason to praise. You know, when you read the Psalms, you'll see often time the psalmist grounding praise to God in God's work of creation.

Um, Revelation 4, you are worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they exist and were created. You know, it's to strip away another reason, a blessed reason to praise God when we redefine creation or when we, you know, fit it into some sort of a naturalistic or humanistic or scientific way.

You know, if if man can get rid of God as creator, they get rid of him as provider and sustainer and governor, and they ultimately get rid of him as judge. Get him out. get them out. Get them out from the beginning and you don't have to worry about them in the middle and the end. I I think there's a purpose not not in, you know, [sighs] foolhardy or metal, you know, muddleheaded Christianity that that does accept some sort of evolution at a macro level.

I'm not talking about that. But a humanistic rejection of God creating, it's driven by getting God out. If I get rid of him, as I said at the beginning, I don't have to worry about him in the middle, and I certainly am not going to meet him at the end. Whereas, if I believe for a moment that God actually did create the world,

then probably the Bible's right, I'm going to have to meet him again someday in the future.

You know, pagan's like kind of a cyclical version of history

where the Bible presents a linear.

You've got a beginning, you've got a middle, and you've got an end. You got a talos and you're going to stand before that God and you're going to give an account of deeds done in the body whether good or ill. So yeah, if I'm a humanist that hates God and doesn't want to deal with God at the end, best way is to get rid of him at the beginning.

Mhm.

And can Christians be wrong and still be Christians? I would say yes.

I just think of Spurgeon held to

Yeah.

He had he I didn't want to bring him up. I don't want to throw our dear brother under the bus, but no, there, you know, the I think Hajj and Warfield certainly, you know,

went outside the boundaries in a way that I'm not comfortable with. So, you know, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. Does that necessarily include, you know, the age of the earth?

Again, I believe based on, you know, what I understand scripturally in a young earth. I believe in six literal days. But can a guy believe on the Lord Jesus and not accept six literal days and still be saved? I would say yes.

God is [clears throat] gracious.

God God is gracious.

You're not saved.

Not about our knowledge. And

you're not saved based on Christ and your cosmology. You're saved based on, you know, what Christ has accomplished. Now, having said that, I I think it is important.

I think that, you know, Jesus and the apostles treat the early chapters of Genesis as history.

Mhm.

Not as fable, not as literary, you know, and and and I think, you know, cuz some have recognized, you know, genius literary style in the book of Genesis. I don't think that's inconsistent with conveying truth.

I think you can have both. Genius literary convention that does teach six literal days creation. I I don't think it's one or the other.

So, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Just But with evolution, then you got suffering before the fall, which

doesn't make sense, right?

You know, the whole that's been one of those things, you know, people get into a lot of Christians are very into, you know, the answers in Genesis. And it's just never been a problem for me. And I don't say that therefore that's all bad. It's just certain.

Yeah. Everybody has their own tendencies or inclinations. I wasn't a scientist. I don't ever think I'll be a scientist.

I have no desire to be a scientist. I got converted. The Bible says this. Okay.

I I I haven't needed to kind of beer behind the scene or know the shape of the universe. And that's fine. People can do that. They're great to.

But that's not just not my forte. It's not really an interest for me. It's like when we approach chapter 4 in our confession, you know, there there there could be, you know, have can ham come? No, I think the chapter is teaching theology.

I think it's teaching scripture, you know, and the glory of God and the manifestation of God and and that. So, you know, but not that Kenham isn't important. Great. He does a good thing.

Just never been kind of my thing,

right? I've appreciated I've gone to some of creation presentations, but just to see

um the majesty of God in creation, the small things and cells and molecules and the big things and the stars. Um

it's good to stand in awe at that.

It's great. And I would go to that ark.

I'd like to walk that ark. I would.

But it's probably not on my first, you know, top five list of places to visit. You know what I mean? Like, but God's people are different and they have different interests.

They have different, you know, things. That's great.

Backgrounds and

I'm all for that.

They grew up evolution. That's just how they grew up. Or they went to university and they never stopped to think about it.

Yeah.

But they do cuz it impacts ministry and the gospel. Oh, it

sure does. Christ.

Yeah. Absolutely.

Um Okay.

And yeah, what are our speakers set for next year?

For sure. One Daniel Dr. Daniel Shider.

Okay. [clears throat]

And working on the other.

Yeah.

Yeah. Um so yeah website for the conference is confessingthefaitha.ca where you can obviously get information and uh register there.

So

and

and then past years

yes recordings from past years are all online chapter one of uh the holy scriptures

and of god and the trinity

and then of god's god decree y

all went really well. So,

Mhm. [snorts]

All right. Uh, Pastor Butler, how to sing, pray, or yes, just the praying the impregatory psalms and bless our enemies. Can that

be done at the same time?

They seem contradictory.

So, how do we reconcile that with Christ's command to bless and not curse our enemies?

Yeah, that's a great question. [snorts] Um it may be difficult but we can do it. I I think the the the tendency of some in the church to take the Psalms of David that contain impreations that means basically calling down a curse upon your enemies is to conclude that that's antiquated that's barbaric that's something confined to David that really shouldn't be duplicated in this New Testament setting. The first thing I would say is that the New Testament itself contains impreations. Paul in 1 Corinthians 16 says, "If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be anathema." Which I would say outdoes David in the Psalms.

David, you know, says, "Shhatter my enemy's teeth." Paul is saying, "Let him be damned to hell."

Okay, that's 1 Corinthians 16:22. Paul in 2 Timothy 4 says, "Alexander the coppermith did me much harm. May the Lord repay him." And I don't think he means by grace, mercy, forgiveness, and you know, a spot next to the Lord Jesus in the kingdom to come. You know, Paul in Galatians chapter 1 pronounces an anathema, a curse upon anybody that would twist or distort the gospel.

So to to dismiss impreations as being, you know, unbiblical is to deal unjustly with New Testament texts. The second thing I would say is that when it comes to these impreations that you find in the Psalms of David that [snorts] they're prayers of Christ ultimately I I think that Jesus is the subject, the the the object, the author, the composer, the singer and the prayer of the Psalms. And and I think that's important to keep in mind. Jesus [snorts] was a man of sorrows and he was acquainted with grief.

The Psalms led us into his mindset during his earthly ministry. And as we would expect from somebody that's true humanity, true human being, there's a a hatred and a detestation for that which is contrary to his father. He hates and abores the wickedness. And and so he cries out for vindication.

He cries out for God's justice. To reject the impre impregatory psalms is to reject God's justice. It is to reject in principle God's righteousness and the reality that I think the Bible always and everywhere presents that God is a just judge. He is going to bring vengeance upon his enemies.

He is going to to shatter the teeth of his enemies. He is going to to smash them and cast them down. Now, I suggest that for us, if we want to invoke these psalms, if we want to pray or sing these psalms, we need to remember their scripture. I I I know there's times when we've sang Psalm 11 in our church, and I've I've often wondered I I've often sympathized with the newbie that's just found their way into our church, and it talks about God raining coals of fire upon his enemies.

You know, that's not your typical Christian fair on a Sunday morning. You You're not singing about God smashing his enemy's teeth. Well, we do sing impre impregatory psalms. And so, yeah, I do wonder.

This is probably the first and the last time this person will ever visit with us, but but we need to remember that they're given to us by God.

They're scripture. They're God breathed scripture, and they're about Jesus. Jesus tells us they're about him in Luke's gospel. So [snorts] for us to to sing them, we can sing them in the spirit of they're they're scripture and we sing scripture. [snorts] To pray them and make them our own, we need to remember they're what you know the Christs and and they're David's and and by extension they are the churches, but they're not to be utilized for little issues.

You know, your boss was mean to you at work. [snorts] Mhm.

You don't pray God to smash his teeth.

You don't [clears throat] you you don't pray for God to cause the car that cut you off in traffic to crash, to spin over and burn up. [snorts] That would be an a vindictive, self-centered appropriation of those psalms. We are to bless those who curse us. we are in a general tenor of God's benevolent love to others, not bump into people, not, you know, invoke God's wrath upon them. But when it comes to, you know, certain grave attacks against the majesty of the most high and against his Christ, is it legit to pray that God would stop his enemies? I think it's perfectly legit.

Can we use the language of the salt psalter to to voice those concerns? Yes.

I I I I don't see anything that would keep us from praying that God

take those enemies and and smash them under his hand of justice. Again, not my enemy that cut me off or, you know, took the last whatever at Walmart, but those enemies of the gospel, those enemies of Christ, those enemies that are that are, you know, abusing and hurting and and and violating Christ's little ones. Yeah.

To to say no, we we need to love those who are cutting off our brothers and sisters tongues.

We are to love those who are, you know, raping Christian sisters. We are to love those who, you know, abort babies and celebrate ghoulishness. No, we can we can love them with that love of benevolence. You know, I'm not going to set you on fire, but with the love for God and the purity of his gospel and the glory of his name, take these wretches out.

You know, I I I've presented at our church what I think are not what I think. It's not like Jim thinks, but you know, I've thought through this and I've read some stuff on this and you know, with civil authority, how do we pray for civil government in a Psalms of David sort of fashion? Well, I pray first and foremost that God redeem. We saw that in our study in 1 Timothy 2 the other night.

God, why do we pray for kings and all who are in authority? Because God wants to save all men. Not all men without exception, but all men without distinction. All kinds of men. [gasps] So pray for their salvation.

But if they're not going to be saved, we can pray that God restrains them,

right?

Get restrained, wholly restrained. Uh Solomon says that the king's heart is in the hand of Yahweh. He turns it wherever he wishes like like water. So God restrain them.

And if not, then remove them. I don't get nittygritty. here's how I think you should remove them. They could choke on their morning eggs. They could crash their car.

However God wants to remove them is up to him.

And if that means some, you know, violent bloody way, then that's up to him. You know, the voice of a god and not a man. Herod in in Acts 12, he was eaten and died. He eaten by worms and died.

God's free to do that.

And nobody's free to say, "Well, that doesn't seem right. That doesn't seem fair. this was an enemy of the most high arrogating to himself that he was the most high and God took him out.

So, you know, redeem them, restrain them, or remove them.

Why would we continue to be okay with guys that promote, you know, widescale mass murder? I I because because I I I I love my enemies. Yeah, I love my enemies and that I'm not setting them on fire, but I don't love godless men who are destroying countries through, you know, murder and mayhem.

Take them out. I think if ever there was a time to pray the the impregatory Psalms of David, now's probably as good a time as it could be.

Mhm. you know the the the hymns and the singing and the the the songs in churches

today you know it can be so effeminite or the church militant

let's sing Psalm 68 let's sing Psalm 94 let's sing Psalm 58 let's sing Psalm 11 let's sing these songs that our brothers in Christ have sung throughout millennia as they marched to the gallows as they fought in battles as they promoted Christ in his cross.

I think what the church sings often times is indicative of how the church functions. And if it's all these, you know, shallow, vapid, weird songs, of course, we're going to be a feminite.

Yeah. You've always got this quote you read from, is it Ralph Davis or something about the weak femin comes wreaking of hand cream.

Yeah. He's He's a conquering warrior on a horse.

He's a conquering warrior.

So crushing the enemies. Yeah. Could be kill them, right?

Or something, right?

Or could crush them by his grace.

Yeah. And humble them. Yeah. Bring them to salvation.

Yeah.

Mhm.

That's where, you know, David gets pretty vocal. Yeah. Break their teeth. You know, we can repeat those in song or in prayer, but ultimately David would have been content.

However, God chose to remove those enemies.

Some of the languages more symbolic spirituality.

Yeah. And there's things that Yeah. definitely invoke or or assume other images that are used in the scriptures.

Yeah.

And there's a great essay or guard there's a couple of good things on impregatory psalms. I mean I think it's an area that [snorts] should be studied. There's a good there's a book called Sing a New Song.

It's edited by Joel Beaki and I want to say I can't remember the guy, Savageio, some some long name. Um, but it's just multi- multi- authors contributing essays and I think it was um David was it I'm going to mess up his name. One of the guys David Murray wrote the article or the essay on on the impregatory psalms. It was very good, brief, really good.

Um, there's a book by a reformed Baptist pastor called War Song, War Songs of the Prince of Peace,

which gets high marks just for that title alone. The book could have been garbage in [snorts] that that title, War Psalms or War Songs of the Prince of Peace. War Psalms or songs, but it's really good. It's very helpful.

There's some good good things in there to think through and some good things to ponder. You can't just dismiss it and say, "Well, that's the Old Testament. It doesn't matter for us today."

Well, you got Paul invoking God's wrath upon distorters of the gospel. You got problems if in principle you take out God's justice, judgment, and righteousness inflicted against his enemies.

Good.

All right.

Uh

Musical Instruments in Worship

Are drums and other musical instruments okay for corporate worship? Um,

so for someone

really likes bongos. So, [laughter]

so yeah, for someone raised on organ only, piano only, psalms only, ac capella,

bongos,

how should they think about it? Your church has

eight instrument other instruments to do it.

Bongos, drums.

Start.

I can start. [snorts]

What's the problem?

I would say no. And the reason I would say no is a covenantal argument. I I believe that the covenant you're in regulates the way that you worship. And the new covenant is very clear that worship is simple.

In worship, we we sing the word. In worship, we pray the word. In worship, we preach the word. In worship, we see the word in the sacraments.

In other words, we do what the new covenant tells us to do when it comes to the worship of God. Traditionally, this has been called in the reformed world the regulative principle of worship. In other words, we do what God commands. We're not free to do anything other than what God commands.

So, when you go to the pages of the New Testament, you don't see drums. I'd argue you don't see organs. I'd argue you don't see pianos. You don't see any of that.

You see simple worship. singing the word to God. Psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs. The old covenant, there was an emphasis on musical instruments. They were mandated.

They were commanded by God to be utilized in temple worship. And if persons say, "Well, then that means we should do it today." Well, remember in old covenant, you had a temple, you had a priesthood, you had sacrifices, you had incense, you had things that were unique to old covenant worship, those things plus their instruments. You get to the new covenant, the undergirling principle is the same. We come before the one true and living God and we worship him.

But we do it based on that covenant we're in. Old covenant you had musical instruments. Old covenant you had priesthood. Old covenant you had sacrifice.

Old covenant you had tabernacle and temple. Old covenant you had all that. New covenant you don't have all that. We are the priesthood.

We are the temple. We have the great high priest, our Lord Jesus. And so we come to him in a very simple way. And when older authors address this, they basically explain it that the Jews under the old covenant were more carnal.

And they don't mean by that necessarily sinful, but there was a carnality involved in their worship that spoke to that covenantal age. Whereas in the new covenant, Christ has come. The fullness of blessing has come. We worship God in the spirit in in spirit and in truth. which typically John 4 is taught as you know with your heart and head.

I don't think that's what me he means when he says worship in spirit and truth. I think he means trinitarian worship. We come to the father through the son in the spirit. And that's [snorts] a simple approach not marked by temple building sacrifices incense priesthood.

Simple. Sing the word, pray the word, preach the word, see the word. That's it.

Yeah. So with the old covenant and all those sacrifices and everything to do with the tabernacle, the temple, the majority of those things pointed to Christ.

That's right. And fulfilled.

But a harp or a trumpet, I would say, is not a type or a shadow of Christ,

but they were specifically commanded by God for utilization in the worship of God. And if we take the principle as stated, the regulative principle, we do what God commands. There's no statement in the New Testament that says, you know, make a drum or make make an organ or make a pipe organ, as beautiful as they may sound, and bring them into worship.

Now, the big debate obviously is this. Are those elements of worship or are they circumstances? Some people would suggest that they're circumstances. they help us to comply with the element which is singing. That's an intramural debate.

That that's probably why we have a piano.

Um and we haven't sold it at a garage sale yet. It's just there's some difficult things to parse out.

But you know, there's a great book on this subject as well. It's written by a reformed Baptist pastor. It's name it's called Old Light on New Worship.

And it's basically a case against musical instruments. And and the the the the author's final sort of conclusion is if you have a piano, don't sell it. You know, don't get rid of it. If you if you are, you know, if you are captured by or captivated by his argument, but but don't add more instruments.

You know, the better part of wisdom.

Why are you wanting to add more instruments, right? Is it just a better experience? Subjective emotional kind of things.

Is it really supporting the singing better?

That's right. And you know, I'll go on record.

I hope to communicate this to our church more formally soon. But people have asked, why are we singing ac cappella now? Is it because of your preferences? No, we did it at the conference.

It was great. And people have been saying, can we do that more often in our church? And the more we do it, people are saying, wow, we really like that. Mhm.

So, it's a good thing and you know, it's not me smuggling in or my attempt to get rid of the piano like that.

Nothing nefarious.

Um but but it's it's okay to sing praise and and our church sings good.

Yeah.

If we didn't sing well, we wouldn't have wouldn't we'd, you know, fill it up with more piano. But we really sing good or well is probably the better way to say that. But even if we got like 10 people at a Bible study, it's like great singing.

Good singing. I know.

Yeah. And and so let's let's utilize that. That's a good thing.

Yeah. Yeah.

So yeah, for our church at least, well, we're on our watch.

There's not going to be bongos and

Yeah. you know, guitars and and you know, the the the the alternative is, you know, the the reformed churches, okay, they might have an organ, they might have a piano, some might throw in a violin, whatever. But, you know, out in the evangelical world, I mean, you got very talented musicians and and it becomes more of an entertainment session or a rock concert

than it than it has any bearing on the worship of God.

Mhm.

I I just I just think that's wrong. Mhm.

We're not there to see a guy shred on his Les Paul guitar.

You can watch YouTube videos and see guys probably shred better on less Paul guitars than you would on a Sunday morning in an evangelical church. But that's not why we're at church.

We're not there to watch this guy that

is is great.

And wasn't it Augustine? Be careful. Be careful when it comes to music. Music has great potential to lead you toward God or away from God.

It really does.

I remember reading that John Price book on old light on new worship and thinking about it and he makes that point the psychological element. Music really does have power. And I remember, I won't name the song that I was listening to, but I had the radio on in the car and it was this older song and and I started getting stirred up emotionally like I'm not sure I was wiping tears from my eyes, but it just verified that principle.

Mhm.

You know, you you put horrible things in a nice package.

People receive horrible things. I mean, some songs are terrible.

Oh, yeah.

This could be a whole video on its own like Hill Song and Bethl Elevation and all these

they're putting horrible things in a good sounding package and you know people are are shaped by that that that medium.

Yeah. Those are Rabbi Zachcharias. I'm not here to comment on him either good or bad bad. But he says, you know, it's what people watch on TV, what movies they view, what music they listen to.

That's what shapes the mind.

That's where your philosophy is today.

Yeah.

You want to change a generation, just sit them in front of a TV and put your message in.

Same with music. I mean, and you you could be thinking or singing the worst possible things, but it's melodic and it sounds so nice. Got to be careful of that. It's truth.

Psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs. Why more emphasis on singing psalms? Cuz you're not going to go wrong with them,

right? I mean, God wrote them. [laughter] You can't Well, these aren't fit for corporate worship.

Well, God wrote them. So, yeah, they are perfectly

Some of them are paraphrased a fair amount. Some are paraphrased,

but they're still pretty good.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. You know, that that that's certainly something to be cautious about, careful [clears throat] of, but

Yeah.

Okay. Good there. All right.

Another Yeah, I guess regular principal question. Collection of offerings. Is it part of the Lord's day worship? So, why does our church not pass around a bag or a plate or a box or what have you?

Um, isn't giving part of Lord's Day worship?

I would say, yeah, I I I would think so. I think we should be. I mean, there's things This is why I I sent you guys an email right before we came. Some of these questions are why do we do what we do?

And we have inconsistencies and we have idiosyncrasies. So, so if anybody questions, if you get these FGBC questions that are unique to us, tell them to come

and I can happily explain. You know, all things being equal,

I did what we were already doing when I got here.

And, you know, unless something is broken, you don't typically try to fix it. But, no, I think there is prudence and wisdom and, you know, passing the hat, so to speak, or or uh whatever.

I I do think however though it shouldn't I I I wouldn't want to make un visitors I don't think it's a visitor's place. If they want to cough up and give they they're free to but churches shouldn't cuz I've heard that as arguments in the past. We should be passing the the hat for lack of a better term so that you know we can get the No, no, no, no, no, no. That's the members of the church.

It's their responsibility. We look after ourselves.

Mhm. And I I wouldn't want it to be and and you know the the the the complaints about sort of Protestant or evangelical or any kind of churches, they're always, you know, after my money. Well, why?

Because some churches are after your money. And that's that's not something I want to portray or communicate. Look, if if you want to give, you're free to do that,

but we're not going to pressure you. We're not going to bind your conscience.

I' I've showed up to this church. I better make sure I've got a 20. Mhm.

That's not a good thing.

Yeah.

Mhm.

And today people Sorry, you're going to jump in there, but um people are giving online. We got technology and bank transfers and stuff, right?

So, I don't know how much money our deacons are actually counting,

but it does it does. But I do get and I the the sense of the the spirit of the question is right. if am I worshiping God when I'm doing an e transfer? that that that question was very good and it wasn't lost on me and I get you know the the the possible disparity because if it is an act of worship

you know ideally before I hit send on that er transfer I should bless God praise God thank you for prospering me

but I don't usually do that so it does take away from the worship part of of the giving

yeah yeah no I was just you had started the question by saying something like speaking of the regulative principle of worship and I think it it'd be an an important distinction or important question to ask you know is is the offering is the giving an element of the divine liturgy and the confessionally speaking we could see that it's not included

um the reading of the scriptures preaching hearing the word of God teaching and admonishing one another in psalms hymns and spiritual psalms songs singing with grace in our hearts to the Lord as also the administration of baptism and the Lord's supper are all parts of religious worship of God to be performed in obedience to him with understanding faith reverence and godly fear as well solemn humiliation with uh fastings and thanksgiving

those are elements

so those those are the elements of the divine liturgy so the question can be asked well where is the offering where is the passing of the hat where is the wooden box on the long wooden pole um in there it's it it's not there. That doesn't mean it's not a it's not worship. That doesn't mean it shouldn't happen on the Lord's day.

I think there's a distinction here between what constitutes the divine liturgy in the context of the gathering of the church and and what is something that the church ought to do perhaps yes on the first day of the week um as we have evidence in the Bible. It's interesting though those biblical examples have to do with special collections for a special relief effort. It isn't it isn't the just the giving of offerings generally speaking for um you know within the context of church like we do in the passing of a hat or you know the passing of the box. It's something different going on there contextual to to to to the early church with the the regard with regards to the the provision of relief.

So is it an element of the divine liturgy? Confessionally speaking it's not included. Um, and I think that that says something.

Good. So, when I transfer on a Thursday, I can feel happy about that.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Okay. Thank you. [laughter]

Thank you, Pope.

Pope Cameron. That's a that's a we need a paper bowl, you [laughter] know. [snorts]

But definitely a lot of abuse in churches. We've seen just compulsion and just these

I forget some of these names but um they've got their jets and their you know and everything and

yeah if you don't give money

and you know some some of these practical [clears throat] questions again that feel at times very much directed to our church and I wonder if how many of they come from you but um they're tough there's some things that are tough to navigate and tough to figure out and and good men disagree and good men differ and we always need to make sure we maintain and that that spirit of charity, you know, when it when it's talking about when I was talking about musical instruments, if you are a confessional reformed Baptist and you got a flute and you got a violin, I'm not going to not come to your church.

I'm not going to pronounce anathemas on you. I'm just not.

You know, there there's there's latitude in things that really aren't as justification by faith alone is crystal clear. You cannot mess that up. Mhm.

You can, you know, get different on certain things.

And I think we need to be okay with that.

Yeah. [snorts]

Yeah.

I mean, it'd be great if everybody did it just the way we did. No, it wouldn't. That would be bad. And then I [clears throat] know there there are inconsistencies in our church.

I know that. I live with that. My motto now is I've got to leave some things for my successors to fix. I don't want I don't want to fix everything.

They got not that I could, but I they got to have something to do, too.

There you go.

Yeah.

I think that's a good posture at this point.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But yeah, we went through guess 10 questions there out of the 30 or 40.

That's good. I think we covered a lot.

Save some for next time. So,

sure. Covered a lot of ground.

I think it was some good discussion.

Yeah. And the majority are are all submitted online, right? Um through the website. So, if you're listening to this, yeah, submit your questions.

Prefer real ones. I can think ones up and I use AI and stuff but it just never lands the same as a real question somebody behind that. So

totally. Yeah.

But some I get just from conversations with people at church and what have you and

That's good.

One ones and

All right.

Yeah.

Well, thank you.

Very good. Thanks, man.

Very good.

Thank you. All right. All right.

Scripture References

• 2 Kings 19:35
• Psalms 11; 58; 68; 94
• Isaiah 6:3; 9:6
• Matthew 28:18-20
• Luke 2:13
• John 4:24; 8:37-44; 15:1; 15:18; 15:21; 15:23; 16:2; 20:31
• Acts 12:23
• Romans 7:18-25
• 1 Corinthians 15:1-4; 16:22
• Galatians 1:8-9
• Colossians 3:16
• 1 Timothy 2:1-4
• 2 Timothy 4:2; 4:14
• Hebrews 1:14
• Revelation 4:11
• 1 John 5:13