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we thank you for this opportunity to gather together we thank you for the wonderful subject matter concerning our great God even Father Son and Holy Spirit we pray that you would guide and direct us by the spirit that we would learn these things that it would be a means of encouragement and edification in our own hearts that we would Faithfully defend the Christian faith and as well God that we would we would worship you in a way that is fitting for such a glorious and Majestic God forgive us for all of our and all we thank you for the Lord Jesus Christ and the precious blood that he shed for us we just pray you you would be praised and we ask in his name amen well as we continue on in the chapter the spirit and the Father the Holy Spirit and father been really good I think this coming section is very encouraging Worship in the spirit but just a bit of riew from this chapter um beginning at page 61 the Holy Spirit and father he makes the interesting observation in the introduction that we typically don't have books or studies specifically on the father we do with reference to the Son and the spirit and at the bottom of that page he says in this chapter we will consider God the holy spirit in relation to God the father and will gain clarity about both of these of the Trinity by pondering them together and then he deals with promise and fulfillment so when we look at the Old Testament prophets we see written conc theing of the spirit and got a question did the believer in the oldest the holy what yes why because the Bible tells me so go ahead Spirit was pulled out poured out more fully when Pentecost is and what's the significance of that so the Old Testament prophets prophesy today not only the coming of the Messiah but also a coming and power of the holy spirit so what's the significance behind that why more spirit in the New Covenant than in the old think think primarily because of the revelation of the is by the son reation Redemption that mission and you know you know to to ask the question and somebody did just recently you know they had heard that somebody taught that the people of God in the Old Testament didn't have the Holy Spirit well that would be akin to saying that the people of God in the Old Testament didn't have faith in Jesus so you know it's a it's an odd question or it's an odd approach to the subject but when we see the the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ the mission of the Savior and then the mission of the spirit this is what is foretold in the prophets not that there was an absence of the the second or third person in the old Covenant but in terms of the New Covenant this is the full manifestation or demonstration by God of the the Triune nature of God so the coming of the spirit the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ in those temporal missions uh uh uh fulfill what the prophets had spoken but also what do we get or what do we learn when we look at those missions of the son and spirit does anybody remember when we see the mission or the Incarnation of the Son and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost what what does it help us to understand at least to some degree Beyond just those temporal missions C Redemption no kind of but no I just put it in there temporal what's the contrast or what's the the we have temporal missions and then we have something else relations relations of origin yes but what procession processions Eternal processions so the temporal missions shine some light does doesn't do it so doesn't do it exhaustively but it shines some light on Eternal procession so the relations between the Father the Son and the Spirit uh in God himself are unbegotten begotten and proceeding when we look at the missions we see something of that so it provides for us a window the temporal missions do to see and appre appreciate something of Eternal processions again not exhaustively it doesn't teach us everything there is because at some level God is in comprehensible to us he is known only by himself in term in terms of his Essence so promise and fulfillment is a big Concept in the old Covenant in fact if you think about it you've got the old Covenant is promise and anticipation the New Covenant is fulfillment and realization so the two uh Testaments are absolutely crucial to one another this idea that we should only have New Testaments is not good we should have both the Old and the new Testament because the Old Testament is full of the Lord Jesus and the Holy Spirit as well and so he uh rehearses several passages concerning the the spirit in terms of the the uh promise of the Old Testament and then on page 68 big picture new myology basically God the father's plan has always been to dwell among his people and the Holy Spirit is in person the Fulfillment of that plan he says that on page 68 under the The Heading big picture patology and basically just shows how in Covenant and in God's plan the idea is is that God says I will be your God and you shall be my people how is that realized it's realized through or in the person of the holy spirit so very encouraging to see that relationship between the father and the spirit and then as he moves through the data he certainly mentions the the son we have that Motif those prepositions does anybody remember the prepositions when we consider the the Triune God from through and in yes very good from through and in so from the father through the son in the spirit and as I said when we get to the uh uh worship we just basically reverse that and we have in the spirit through the son to the father and I think that the way he handles that material it's very encouraging and especially when he shows it uh reflected in the book of Ephesians but back to page 70 it says first when we say God desired to dwell among us we need to be careful never to describe this as the kind of Desire that comes from any lack deficit or neediness on his part so remember God was not incomplete he doesn't say wow I wish I had something to sort of fulfill me I'm going to make the world and all things in it no we saw it on on Wednesday night in Acts 17 at the areopagus Paul says God is not dependent upon creation God does not need creation he's not like the gods of the Heathen that are in some degree dependent upon the creation dependent on the creation for food or for whatever whatever those Gods need they get from creation the true and living God is not that way he's not dependent so when he creates it's not out of any any uh emptiness in him but rather according to his own good pleasure at the bottom of page 72nd when we say that God desired to dwell among us and then did so we have skipped a step and then on page 71 at the bottom he said third and temporarily skipping the subject of the atonement we also temporarily set aside the central role of the Son of God it is high time we brought him back into Focus because none of God's ways make sense until we understand them as being centered on Jesus Christ so a very helpful way that proceeds through the material that from through and in Motif that I think is most helpful as we consider uh the the the Eternal processions and as well the temporal missions and so that brings us then to page 75 Worship in the spirit any questions or comments up to this point yes just wondering then um so now so we can say then that the work of the holy spirit in the old Covenant is different than the work of the holy spirit in the New Covenant because in the New Covenant he's indwelling among his people why would say he indwelt the people of God in the old Covenant as well so when David falls into sin and then he repents and then he pens Psalm 51 he says take not uh thine Holy Spirit from me so there is a sense and again the same pattern that you see in Ephesians 13-14 God chose us he predestined us in Christ we have Redemption through his blood and then in verses 13 and 14 we're sealed by the spirit and guaranteed for our final inheritance all that is true of Old Testament Saints as well I don't know that it's a a a qualitative difference that we see in the New Covenant but a quantitative so the the prophecy in Joel 2 that is fulfilled on the day of Pentecost is an outpouring of the holy spirit in a more powerful way and I think as I've mentioned in in studies in Acts Acts 2 acts 8 acts 10 are very similar so what you have in Acts 2 is the spirit poured out in a powerful way on the day of Pentecost to Jerusalem in Acts 8 you see people receive the spirit and start speaking in tongues the emphasis isn't on speaking in tongues the emphasis is upon Judea Samaria receiving the Holy Spirit and then in Acts 10 you see the household of Cornelius received the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues again the emphasis isn't wow let's speak in tongues no now the Gentiles so that follows the pattern that you see in acts in fact turn to Acts chapter 1 because if you you kind of get this it helps you to understand that when you're looking at these passages that are tongu speaking the emphasis really isn't on the tongue speaking I mean it kind of is but it isn't notice in Acts 1 specifically at verse 6 therefore when had come together they asked him saying Lord will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel they're still sto struggling with the sort of Messianic concept the arrival of the Messiah the establishment of the Kingdom as barcelos mentioned in his preaching here for the conference this was all cleared up after Pentecost so whatever misapprehensions or misunderstandings the apostles themselves possessed when the spirit comes in power we see the fruit a fulfillment of what Jesus says in the upper room when he when he's dealing with the disciples in the upper room discourse as I've tried to point out in our studies in John that's not primarily for us it it's primarily for them there is residual benefit there is a general sense where we can say yeah the Spirit guides us and leads us and teaches us but the primary referent was the apostles who had witnessed the Lord and his teaching for three years so again they didn't get everything along the way but after the pouring out of the spirit they're they're clear they they understand and again not that they didn't have the spirit but in a in a in a way of Illumination that they prior uh previously hadn't had so they're they're curious about this Messianic Kingdom verse 7 he said to them it is not for you to know times or Seasons which the father has put in his own authority but you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you then notice this is the outline of the book and you shall be witnessed is to me in Jerusalem that's acts chapters 1:7 uh Judea Samaria that's chapters 8 and n and to the end of the Earth that's chapters 10 and following and so that's what you have in terms of the outline and so at these key points the Holy Spirit comes in a powerful way in fulfillment of Joel's prophecy first in Jerusalem then Judea Samaria and then to the uttermost parts of the earth and if you look spe specifically at Acts 2 at verse 33 you see why the spirit has been given in power so 233 therefore being exalted speaking of Jesus to the right hand of God and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit remember the promise is for you and your children and all all those who are far off in 238 it's not a p Baptist text it's a text that ensures that those who believe receive the power of the Holy holy spirit so having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit he poured out this which you now see and here for David did not Ascend into the heavens but he says himself the Lord said to my Lord sit at my right hand till I make your enemies your foot stol therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus whom you crucified both Lord and Christ so the power the presence the qu uh quantitative difference is not that now the the people of God have the spirit but the Pres and the power of the spirit is making known the Glorious reality that the Messianic kingdom is upon us that Jesus is the one who is stationed at the right hand of the father and he is both Lord and Christ so again that happens here it happens in chapter 8 with the the Judea Samaria outpouring notice in 8:14 now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God they sent Peter and John to them who when they had come down prayed for them that they might receive the holy spirit for as yet he had fallen upon none of them they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus then they laid hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit and then over in chapter 10 same sort of emphasis in 44 while Peter was still speaking these words the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word and those of the circumcision who believed were astonished as many as came with Peter because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also for they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God then Peter said Can anyone forbid water that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have and he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord then they asked them to stay a few days and to some degree probably a lesser degree Acts 19 and The Disciples of John the Baptist notice in 191 it happened while Apollos was at Corinth that Paul having passed through the upper regions came to Ephesus and finding some disciples he said to themid you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed so they said to him we have not so much as heard whether there is a holy spirit I I don't think they're talking in trinitarian categories we don't know at all whatsoever but I think it's in the fullness in the Fulfillment of the jolu Ezekiel 36 Isaiah prophecies where we're in the age of the spirit now I don't think it's a complete misunderstanding or lack of knowledge and then notice in verse three and he said to them and what then were you baptized so they said into John's baptism now people often interpret this as rebaptism I don't think it is John's baptism is Christian baptism what you have is what Paul said in verses four and five and what Paul did in verse 6 so notice so they said into John's baptism what Paul said in Verses 4 and 5 then Paul said John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance saying to the people that they should believe on him who would come after him that is on Christ Jesus uh and then when they heard this the people to whom John spoke I think the quotation marks at the end of verse four are interpretive and I think they're wrong those quotation marks should be at the end of verse 5 he's talking about the people that came to John the Baptist what did John preach to people that came to him believe on the Lord Jesus Christ how is that not Christian baptism so when they heard this the people that came to John the Baptist and were pointed to Jesus Christ they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus so this is what happened in terms of the Disciples of John and then here in verse 6 and when Paul had laid hands on them the Holy Spirit came upon them and they spoke with tongues and prophesied now the men were about 12 and all so again the idea being that at key junctures in the missionary Endeavor we see the spirit being given in such a way to make manifest that Jesus is enthroned at the right hand of the father yes so when we come to understanding John's baptism being Christian baptism um how then do we respond to John's not using the trinitarian form for example which I think is Protestants as Western Christians we find essential to Sure baptism yeah I mean it's it's the case that at the time of John the Baptist the people that were being saved were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus it's a progressive revelation Thing by the time we get to Matthew 28 the formula is given Nam of the Father Son and the Holy Spirit so subsequent to that that doesn't mean you need to re-baptize everybody as I think this account makes clear now some as I said take it as a rebaptism passage I think it's to misread the passage I think that John's baptism is valid Christian baptism and I think that that those who were baptized in that span or in that era were fine and then they hear of the Holy Spirit again not wow there's a holy spirit they were conversant with Old Testament scripture the holy spirit is referred to in Old Testament scripture but it's this quantitative difference in terms of the we're we're in the Messianic age it's kind of like John the Baptist in Matthew 11 when he sends his disciples to ask Jesus are you the coming one he's not I don't think he's questioning the identification of Jesus I think he's struggling with the application of the identification of Jesus so in the prophet Isaiah cuz Jesus says go tell John this is what's happening all these great things and it's consistent with Isaiah 35 but probably John's mindset is if all that's true why am I in jail I don't think John is oh are you really the coming one it's if you are the coming one what's a nice guy like me doing in a prison cell so you know you have to Grant and I think barcelos really did point this out well prior to an outpouring of the holy spirit in a greater way the brothers struggled you know Peter may it never be Lord get behind me Satan you know we we don't expect Perfection out of guys that are kind of finding their way you know that this is what I I I I say a lot in John as we're going through it I don't justify the Jews rejection of Jesus I don't justify the Jews hatred for Jesus but I get it at a certain level when they're looking at the Carpenters son and he's claiming to be I am I kind of understand the the the motivation behind them wanting to take stones and and throw at throw them at them again not condoning it but but they're kind of you know stumbling along finding their way Jesus is instructing them there's times in his own Ministry he upgrades them have you been me with me so long and you still don't know this so the coming of the spirit put a fine tune or fine point on things that prior to that had been a bit blurry anything else does I don't know if that answered oh go ahead yeah it's ran here um Can is this where we can make the distinction like in regard not regards to baptism but the um the Holy Spirit on the Old Testament Saint the distinction with the Ordo salus versus Historia salus that that the the Historia you know the outpouring at Pentecost is part of the histor the history of Salvation how it's rought out in in history in time and space but the OS salutis being you know on the individual heart that's the same you know for Old Testament and New Testament certainly yeah Incarnation and Pentecost are Historia uh histor uh historical uh categories historical Redemptive categories yeah I think that's a good good good observation and you know every bit of Ordo in the old Covenant is predicated on the the history salvation history though it hadn't occurred yet right they they knew the promise was there they're Believing on the Jesus to come so every bit of virtue that old Covenant Saints received was based on the the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ so I think yeah that's a good way to look at it all right did that get at your question Andy yeah just kind of this is more of like a a speculation question question but so now when people are prophesying and speaking in Tong is that just like the amount of Holy Spirit getting amped up or is that what do you mean now like in the 21st century or in the first century I in this section mention that people prophesy speak in tongues is that like an amping up an increasing of the of the Holy Spirit yeah I I think I don't know if it's an amping up I don't know if I'd use that particular language but I I think um I'm just going to not find the passage now cuz I want it it's funny 10 years ago I didn't lose passages I'm losing them now right you notice as you get a little older it's like man what's happening here okay uh must be back in I don't want to misquote here oh when Moses when uh Joshua comes and says to Moses oh those those guys are prophesying remember that scene anybody and what does Moses say I would to God that they all prophesied so you've got you've got a movement in Redemptive history to Pentecost so you've got you know Moses saying it would be great if everybody prophesied and then would them minimize the amount of things I need to do I don't know if that was is driving motivation but um and then and then when it comes to um the prophets and their announcement concerning the coming of the the Lord Jesus and the power of the Holy Spirit then we've got these going to pour out my spirit on All Flesh your your men servants your maid servants they're all going to prophesy again I don't know that that means every single human being without exception so I think it's a an outpouring of the Spirit like we haven't seen before and the emphasis I think in the first century on the outpoured spirit specifically when it comes to tongues and prophesying is revelation okay it's not to Dazzle the crowds it's to reveal the mind of God prior to the the completion of the New Testament Cannon you had prophets and tongue speakers that were communicating the word to the churches the the the revelatory gifts again were not meant to Dazzle people they were not meant to wow it was rather to reveal the mind of God through tongue speakers and through prophets so the basic argument is is that that happens in the first century prior to the completion of the New Testament Canon the spirit comes upon various persons and churches but once that new testament Canon is completed those gifts those ones alone cease there's a debate between cessationism and non aism now it's called continuationism and non-c continuationism and wish we' just leave the terms alone but um basically a cessationist teaches the cessation of the revelatory gifts I just saw a clip by Martin Driscoll once again misrepresenting the position I mean this guy is out of his mind um but it doesn't mean the spirit isn't active it doesn't mean that God can't do Miracles it doesn't mean that God doesn't do Miracles it means that the revelatory gets tongue speaking and prophesying have ceased because we have the completed New Covenant uh New Covenant Canon and I believe this was prophesied turn to the Book of Daniel Daniel 70 weeks it's a prophecy concerning what's going to happen when Messiah comes Daniel 7 so all these things are stated stipulated with reference to the coming of Jesus I'm sorry Daniel 9 in the coming of Jesus uh uh at his first Advent so notice in 9:24 70 weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city and this is what Jesus does to finish the transgression to make an end of sins to make reconciliation for iniquity to bring in Everlasting righteousness to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy well he seals up vision and prophecy by being the full re reation of God once the spirit inspires the men to write the words of God there's no longer a need for vision and prophecy we have a sufficient New Testament that does everything we need for it to do so we don't need tongue speakers and prophets in in in the church now sometimes prophesying there's a book by by William Perkins called The Art of prophesying and sometimes you'll see that language in the Puritans it simply means preaching they don't mean foretelling or forthtelling so so the outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon men's servants and Maid servants was to make known the wonderful works of God to make known his will to make known his word so once that is done and I think that new testament sort of chronology demonstrates this so about the mid-50s you've got gift Madness spiritual gift fervor in Corinth I mean Paul has to deal with that in chapter first Corinthians chapters 12 to 14 I mean he takes a lot of space there to deal with tongue speaking and prophesying by the time you get to the Pastoral Epistles you hear nothing about tongue speaking you hear nothing about prophesying the emphasis is always on sound Doctrine you know the last corporate command is preach the word not speak in tongues not you know seek new words or new prophets prophecies for the church Preach the word the word that has been encapsulated in the old new New Testaments that's the word that is abiding that's the word that is normative for the church for subsequent history so does that make sense so not you know when it says pour out my spirit on All Flesh well it doesn't mean the rapper obey so you know all doesn't always mean every single human being comprehensively it's an outpouring that is quantitatively different than what we've seen up to this point I'm just curious because of our confession of Faith where Christ has the Holy Spirit without measure yes makes it seem like there's certain different am depending on the particular person or particular act that the Holy Spirit like to yeah it does seem that there's a I I think that with reference to the the Ephesians 13- 14 we believe the gospel we're sealed by the spirit we receive the spirit is a guarantee but the effect or the degree to which the spirit Works in us I think it is different I think Paul was holier than Jim uh Spurgeon seemed to have far more Spirit empowered empowered preaching than you know a lot of people so I think that the spirit you know I you see that look at 1 Corinthians CH 12 you know the the the reality that he is Sovereign um notice in 1 Corinthians 12 specifically at verse one now concerning spiritual gifts Brethren I do not want you to be ignorant you know that you were Gentiles carried away to these dumb Idols however you were LED therefore I make known to you that no no one Speaking by the spirit of God calls Jesus a cursed and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit now notice the the the the Triune God in Verses 4 to7 you've got Spirit God lord Spirit Lord God so Spirit the holy SP Spirit Lord Jesus God father so verse four there are diversities of gifts but the Same Spirit there are differences of Ministries but the same lord and there are diversities of activ ities but it is the same God who works all in all but the manifestation of the spirit is given to each one for the profit of all but then drop down to verse 11 as he rehearses the various things that people do but one and the Same Spirit works all these things Distributing to each one individually as he Wills we have him as seal and guarantee you don't have more seal and guarantee than I do but you may have more Holiness or more giftedness or whatever because the spirit works as he wills and again the the sovereignty of God the accomplishment of his purpose and plan obviously in the wisdom of God not every man who ever preach needs to be Spurgeon right not every man who ever serves needs to be Barnabas you you do what you can and the spirit enables you to do that but there's differences as the spirit Wills so yeah I would agree we got the same thing in terms of seal and guarantee but there does seem to be a bit of a disparity or difference rather in the way that some increase or grow versus the way others do and that's why I think it's very helpful for us to to recognize that and to genuinely be gracious to brothers and sisters I mean why are you such a or why well you know maybe the spirit isn't it work at him working on him in the same degree or manner that that that he is with us so and that I think it helps us too to not be so hard on ourselves man I I don't have the mind of a Peter Van mastri Well the spirit doesn't want you to or he hasn't given you that that faculty or that equipment so you know plant where you plant where you or grow where you've been planted and do the best you can all right good okay all right so Worship in the spirit so basically everything he said reverse it now for through in now is in through two or from through in is now in through two I think that's really good and I think the fact that he's got Owen much in the comments or in the footnotes is very good Owen's volume uh two is commun of communion with God the Father the Son and the spirit so it's a a treatment of the the one and one true and living God the three persons and how we commune with the three persons and yet the one God very very good stuff so he says we have seen that the father desires to pour out his spirit that he promises to do so and that on that basis he sends the spirit and we have glanced at the fact that the final result of this outpouring is the spirit's indwelling God by the spirit taking up residence in Believers now it is time to say explicitly what the result of that indwelling will be it will be be worship true worship is always worship empowered by the personal presence of the Holy Spirit creating the atmosphere in which it is possible for creatures to worship God just as all Divine action comes from the father through the son and in the holy spirit so all human participation in that action begins in the spirit goes through the Sun and returns to the father we can take that helpful set of prepositions from through in and run it in reverse in the form in through two the shape of God's action toward us is perfectly mirrored in our movement toward God since our movement toward God can only happen in response to that prior Divine action when we worship the father in The Power of the Holy Spirit we complete the entire cycle that runs outward from the father through the Son and the spirit and brings us back to the father through the son in the spirit now that is a wonderfully helpful insight in terms of Christian word ship but I want to make a qualification one that I do very often as we meet together here on Saturday morning if Joe Blow does not understand this tomorrow morning it doesn't mean he's not worshiping okay we're we're digging a bit deeper in terms of theology we're trying to get at some things that are unique to the Lord Jesus in terms of our last study and here in terms of the the Holy Spirit when you go out to witness today you go to downtown and you meet somebody and you tell them about the gospel it if they don't know the from and through and in they can still be saved so we want to make sure that we aren't overly scrupulous to the point where we're disenfranchising you know a good bit of the modern church because I suspect that a good bit of the modern church does not think like this I I suspect that a good bit of the modern church does not have a really a really well worked out trinitarian Theology and and so our job is not to disenfranchise them our job is to be faithful with the knowledge that we have to be humbled by it to commune uh commune with God in the manner that he specifies and as we have it you know opportunity to speak truth in love to people I I really think there's a deficiency in terms of the doctrine of God and and Christ and the spirit operative in the church today and so you know instead of concluding remember the question that was asked at the conference what do we think of you know anti- creedal people do we cut them off well again I think the question was rhetorically overcharged had I you know I thought about it more after having responded but I think there's a difference between non-real and anti-al I would suggest that there's probably a lot of churches that are non creedal they've just never been exposed they don't think about it they don't traffic in it they don't have a confession so of course they're not bumping into NAA or Caledon or aanan Creed or or 1689 they they're just not so they're non- creedal but if presented the truth of those Creeds when they reject resist or deny that then I would categorize them as being anti-al and to me that puts them in a different category so if you have somebody where you clearly explain the doctrine of the Trinity to them as clearly as you can explain the doctrine of the Trinity and they say absolutely positively not well it's at that point that I think you can disenfranchise or you can separate or you can say look that's not a true church but for the non- creedal Evangelical that does this in worship you know he just doesn't know better and I think there ought to be an impetus in all of us in in in healthy churches and and not healthy churches to pray that the Lord Jesus Christ would raise up men that know scripture that know theology because those men are responsible to teach the people of God and if they're not teaching the people of God accurately if they're not teaching the people of God historic Christian Orthodoxy then that does not bode well for the people of God so you know Jesus says in Matthew 9 the Harvest is plentiful but the laborers are few pray that the lord of the Harvest raises up laborers not just for our church we do need a plurality of Elders not going I to we definitely need that but we need young men that are committed to the truth of God's word committed to Historic Orthodoxy that are trained up qualified recognized by churches and sent out because honestly there's a lot of guys out there teaching in pulpits that shouldn't be teaching in pulpits they you know are kids that know Westminster Shorter Catechism what is God no more theology than guys that have been to Bible school and are teaching scripture every Sunday that's an unfortunate reality that we face so I don't want to disenfranchise the non-al but about uh definitely disenfranchising the anti-al and for the non- creedal initially they're not going to just say oh yeah wow we should embrace that for probably some of us and some of you it was the case where there was a bit of resistance to Doctrine there was a bit of resistance to truth happens often with Calvinism people get you know presented with the doctrine of God's sovereignty and they they just recoil and horror well that can't be well we don't give up on them you you keep at them because what happens if they're blood-bought children of God and they have the Holy Spirit they eventually surrender and say well yeah I see it now so so when it comes to the Triune God when it comes to theology proper when it comes to the various aspects of who the father son and spirit are and how they relate to one another I think we need to be patient and certainly prayerful that God raises up men and again probably not everybody in our church has this little section in their heads as they come to to worship I'm I'd like to think that they had some semblance of it from our our looks often at Ephesians 2:18 and 22 I was quite pleased that that he went there in order to justify this particular approach so he he points to Ephesians 2:18 uh I'm not sure if he does 22 but 22 is very similar so basically we come to the the father through the son in the spirit that's Ephesians 2:18 and then again in 22 what I really appreciated was how he connected it to the previous section of Ephesians we get the 218 and 22 benefit because of what God does in chapters 1 and two up to that point so from the father through the son in the spirit we have been redeemed we have Redemption through his blood the Forgiveness of sins according to the riches of God's grace Ephesians 1:7 we have been sealed we have been uh blessed with the guarantee of the Holy Spirit Ephesians 13-4 uh Ephesians 2 1-10 for by Grace you've been saved uh through faith and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God lest anyone should boast so so this whole motif of of blessing coming from the father mediating through the son and and received in the spirit all of that sets the stage for the Ephesians 2:18 and 22 of in the spirit through the sun back to the father so it's a great way to see that God in Salvation is creating worshippers now we often think you know he made me to be a good husband and a good father and a good mother and a good wife and all that and he does but first and foremost he makes us to worship him that was what was forfeit in the Garden of Eden and throughout Redemptive history man is to be a worshiping being he is to to love and honor and serve God uh if I dare quote Piper here in a positive way his book on missions he basically says missions and evangelism don't continue in the Eternal State there are vehicles or means to promote worship it's worship those are those are instruments in this present age to gain more worshippers for God so evangelism and missions in the eternal State it's not going to happen there's nobody going to be to evangelize there's nobody you don't launch a a mission to Tim Buck too when you're in the Eternal state so those are means to promote worship the church at times forgets that we want to go fix Society we want to fix the nation we want to Brethren often times we can't fix ourselves our our first and primary calling is to worship God and from that vantage point then these other good things transpire fire so a great great emphasis here on this prepositional approach from God and to God and I think it's very helpful and then in the middle on page 76 he kind of summarizes what I just said but in this this in through to Dynamic follows directly from the from through in Dynamic at work in the first half of Ephesians 2 where Believers Are Made Alive together with Christ and saved by grace through faith can can I just make an observation here that you know when you start to study this stuff like the the book we read simply Trinity the one we continued on in wellum and now we're here with the Holy Spirit in a in a sense it makes it a lot less difficult in other words when you learn the categories when you learn sort of the credle boundaries when you learn the the way that the confession sort of describes things I feel like I can explain this to a child much better now than I could have years ago well what does that mean Dad well it means that you know God the Father blessings come from him they come through his son the Lord Jesus and they're received in the spirit okay there's there's a connection there when when we worship this Triune God we do so in the Holy Spirit he dwells in us he's he's with us and and he brings us through the mediator the Lord Jesus Christ to the father so so those categories far from being oh they're so difficult it actually enables you to manage the biblical data I think in a way that makes sense you know if if one of the difficulties of the Christian religion is to sort of describe or Define the Christian God it's far more difficult when we don't lean on brothers who did it well so these tactics or these strategies it at least for me it puts it in a more concrete I mean it's still abstract when you're dealing with you know the Triune God whose Spirit but it's more Concrete in the sense of okay I I see that and then I see it very specifically in scripture when you can point to me in Ephesians 1 1 to 210 and show me that that's salvation from the father through the Son and the spirit and then in two 18 and 22 show me how now in the spirit through the son I go to the father it's right there there's no how could you deny the Trinity at that point how could you question you know the the the existence of the Triune God again you may not get all the the ins and outs and the the details and all that sort of thing but but it makes it something that you can now manage and something you can relate to and something you can hold on to so all that to say I think these studies are very beneficial and I think you know again kudos to Sanders I think he's written a very great little book on on the Holy Spirit and I think in worship it's also NE one of the things is I've always taken worship as you know singing yeah but worship this what you're talking about the in through two um in your prayer in your preaching in your listening in your in your in your singing in in every everything that you do that's that's there that's right and it's amazing when you start thinking through it that way when I'm praying I'm in the spirit through the son the father absolutely when you're preaching it's in the right it's that same Motif and it's not just the yeah I think that's probably your background that you know we have worship for an hour and then the preaching yeah this for an hour and then the preaching as if the preaching is conected from worship well yeah I me you don't think of you I never thought of the preaching as God is talking to me yeah no no but but that's what it is that's right absolutely in the spirit through the Sun from the father yeah right and so a pastor detached from the spirit not preaching in the spirit and just talking I mean that's not worship that's just whatever it is no I agree there's the you know this is worship but not we can just cut turn off now because this is you know I like cam at times in his prayers it's the the central act of worship it's a proclamation of God's word we come to hear from God yeah it it really opens up some Vistas to explore that you know if you hadn't thought through it it's very helpful to think through so he leans on Owen the page 76 John Owen calls this passage Ephesians 2:18 a Heavenly directory that lays out the full scope of communion with the Triune God within the scope of God's Oneness the ordered relation of the persons is evident here is a distinction of the persons as to their operations but not at all as to their being the object of our object of our worship Owen is eager to remind us that the Holy Spirit having the divine nature is himself the object of proper Worship in fact Owen provides solid Arguments for the fact that rightly worshiping any of the persons of the trinity involves worshiping all three as the one God it is impossible to worship any one person and not worship the whole Trinity but to grasp the distinct importance of the spirit in worship we need to focus on the fact that he is the person in whom all Grace enabled approaches to God take place great stuff and I think that this will help you know the the if if we looked at denominations in the Christian fa faith and we did word association be kind of an interesting task or an interesting function but if we said charismatics or Pentecostals what might be the onew association yeah not weirdo I know you're that's what you're probably thinking but it tongues are or yeah tongues which is associated with the spirit usually we look at the charismatics or the Pentecostals as being you know the Holy Spirit the Holy Rollers the the the the spirit people the the reformed ought to have that we ought to just be a people of the spirit because we understand that it's in through and two it's it's again not that we only focus on one person of the Triune God but we understand that the the what what he says here I think is very helpful grasp the distinct importance of the spirit in worship we need to focus on the fact that he is the person in whom all Grace enabled approaches to God take place the key is that little preposition in remember that the Divine Life of the Trinity itself is an Inseparable life from the father through the Son and the Holy Spirit and the indivisible work of the Trinity toward us likewise takes place from the father through the Son and the Holy Spirit in making this point about work worship Owen rehearses all this and takes us on the ne onto the next step not only in the emanation of Grace from God in the elapses I think that means gliding in of the spirit on us but also in all our approaches unto God is the same distinction observed so again not everybody's going to have this everybody's going to be singing off the same page but it is very helpful to understand that this is kind of what's happening when we gather together in worship and it makes us more conscientious of each of the persons of the Triune God I think we can be functionally you know modalistic or we can be functionally uh uh uh monaris where we we only see God as father or we we dis uh dispense with the distinctions between the persons th those are the the problems facing us so we can either be arens or sabellian in a practical way but if we're thinking of the one true and living God who exists eternally as Father Son and Holy Spirit and we take that simple prepositional from through in in from uh in through I'm sorry from through in in through to that's very helpful to constantly remind us the one true and living God is three persons and I think it's a good way to instruct our children all right so then he speaks about on page 78 the uh about the spirit's work in prayer so John Owen gives further detail on the spirit's work in prayer and I like the way that he dealt with some of these passages especially in Romans 8 I'm not sure I I know Romans 8 any better but I get what he's saying in terms of the spirit you know these yearnings and these these these deep things of of God operative in the hearts of the people of God very very encouraging so John Owen gives further detail on the spirit's work in prayer picking upon God's promise to pour out the spirit of Grace and of Supplication Owen argues that the Holy Spirit Works in Us in two ways by giving gracious inclinations and dispositions in US unto this duty of prayer and by giving a gracious ability for the discharge of it in due manner that is the holy spirit makes us want to pray and then gives us the power to pray it's important important as unbelievers we probably prayed at a time you know when we're in some sort of Jeopardy or Dire Straits we called out to God God deliver me and I'll I'll I'll go to church or whatever we made deals with God so it's not the case that that no non-Christian ever prays it's not the case that that no false religionist ever prays but the genuine desire to pray now again this is always tough because we probably don't have that desire the way we think we ought or the way that somebody else probably does but but that there is a desire to pray to the true and living God in a way that is consistent with his will that's not in Us by Nature we didn't arrive one day to that oh now I long to pray to God and depend upon him and work that's by grace and so I think that's a good observation the fact that somebody actually wants to pray they may struggle they may have difficulty they may not be as prayerful as they ought but the fact that they want to pray you know when somebody struggles with you know I'm not praying as I think I ought I'm not struggling the way or I'm not praying the way that I want again again good sign pagans don't think like that and pagans don't talk like that so the holy spirit makes us want to pray and then gives us the power to pray and the power to pray again it's going to vary from Paul to Spurgeon to us there's always going to be a difference in terms of the actual act or concrete application of it but most likely it's going to be according to the will of God as revealed in Holy Scripture we're not going to pray you know God make me an astronaut no if you want to be an astronaut you can pray about that but you don't have biblical warrant to be an astronaut but there are biblical things that we pray for and I think as we're more conscious of what scripture says we're praying more fully the will of God in a way that is pleasing to him so then he deals with this uh first step making us want to pray is foundational because something in our fallen nature is habitually resistant to approaching God In Prayer again even in the redeemed nature nature even the the remaining corruption that we have presents challenges there's times where you know we'll do anything and everything but pray I know I need to pray but I better check my email I know I need to pray but I better go check the mail I know I need to pray but I better go hug my wife just pray man just pray I've often thought you know it's not I I need to learn how to pray better so I'm going to read aw Pink's book a guide to effective prayer just pray it's kind of like evangelism we need just go tell somebody about Jesus we got to read 10 books before we'll do it again it's not wrong to read pink on effective prayer but it's better to pray immediately and then read pink on effective prayer page 79 in the SE uh Second Step the spirit also gives us a gracious ability to pray rightly at the bottom he quotes uh Owen to come to God as a father through Christ by the help and assistance of the Holy Spirit revealing him as a father unto us and enabling us to go to him as a father how full of sweetness and satisfaction is it without a due apprehension of God in this relation no man can pray as he ought and hereof we have no sense herewith we have no acquaintance but by the Holy Ghost he's not saying everybody who isn't conscience conscious of this is therefore not praying but to know this and to appreciate this it it adds impetus in public worship so if you're thinking through Ephesians 2:18 and22 and you come to the house of God it should affect you but as well when it comes to prayer you know next time you go to pray privately or you pray as a family or you pray in the church think through this Motif and it's like wow there's something more going on than me just asking to be an an astronaut so it's really a good good approach so any question on any of that all right and then the Deep calls to deep right in the middle the spirit is God Romans 8:26 in other words is not about the holy spirit being a creature who groans and prays to God alongside us instead it is about God drawing so close to us that he supports and empowers our prayers at a deeper level than we can even articulate indeed the holy spirit is closer to us than we are to ourselves because while parts of our inner life may be inac accessible even to our own minds none of them are closed off to the Holy Spirit that's just great God is gracious to us in ways that we can't even conceive in the fact that the spirit intercedes for the Saints according to the will of God Romans 8:27 not with his own inarticulate groanings for he is neither inarticulate nor suffering but with ours in his power and fullness he empowers and fills our groanings if you hear deep spiritual groanings in prayer it is from your spirit and also from God's but in different ways so again he kind of investigates that Dynamic and shows there Romans 8:15 where we cry Abba Father and where in Galatians 4 it's the spirit who declares Abba Father on our behalf so again he's just investigating things that we read and perhaps are perplexed by and and explains it in a way that may still be a bit saying but I think it sheds some light on it you know that question comes up a lot in Romans 8:26 and 27 what does that mean that the spirit and his groanings and the Deep things I think he's getting at it here again may not be you know comprehensively uh comprehensibly understandable but the the blessedness of the fact the spirit knows us better than we know ourselves and at times when we think that we're not praying those might be the times when we've actually prayed the most I mean probably if you're like me you have some form or pattern I mean I don't know that you're hippies and you just start calling out to God on we usually have some sort of a form or pattern and I don't think that's wrong Jesus when he taught his disciples to pray gave them a form or pattern Our Father who art in heaven Hallowed be thy name there's petition there's structure there's order start with God end with man I think it's a beautiful come uh you know package for us to to take there are times that you go off script times you you you leave the pattern and I think those are probably times where the spirit is moving you that way to pray in a way that you not saying that that doesn't invalidate the prayer that's more formal and more patterned but there are seasons and times where the spirit provokes you in a way that you hadn't expected and that's a blessed thing again some of this stuff is tough in the sense of um explanation but I think he gets at it in a good way way uh look at he does deal with page 81 um the spirit is not the son we need to make sure we understand that the Rel Eternal relations of origin distinguish the persons the father's unbegotten the son is begotten by the father and the spirit proceeds from the Father and Son there's no accident that the the the guys who wrote the Creeds and the confessions picked up on that biblical Motif in specifically John's gospel Jesus is the only begotten son from the Father the spirit proceeds from the father they have different relations of origin so they're distinct in terms of their relation so the sun is not the spirit and the spirit is not the son so it's not like the father has two sons no these Eternal relations of origin distinguish the Son and the spirit from the father in a way that maintains trunity I was asked the question recently I forget who it was is it is it necessary oh it was Ryan yeah Ryan uh for there to be three persons in the godhead and I said yeah I think aquinus has argued at length in that direction I haven't read it yet but but yeah I don't think three was willy-nilly I don't think it was halfhazard I don't think it was a lucky accident God by necessity is the true and living God is Father Son and Holy Spirit there's know you know well he could have been four could have been two could have been eight could have been seven no by necessity the one true and living God is Father Son and Holy Spirit so when it comes to them like there's generally two terms when it comes to the spirit there's there's the use of like inspiration there's ession that's right when you start dealing with trinitarian categories you have entire category of processions and there are two processions right which implies that The Sun Also proceeds that's right and inspiration just a more precise Spirit specific okay yeah yeah and I and I think it's okay to speak of the procession of the Sun in the category of AD intra so in other words temporal missions Incarnation temporal Miss Miss Spirit Pentecost Eternal processions the the the the language is is okay so you've got temporal procession of the spirit from the father and the son in a Redemptive sense right he proceeds from the father and the son with reference to Pentecost and what he does in the lives of the believer but you've got an eternal procession with reference to the spirit and with reference to the son so yeah either term spiration or procession is is appropriate to use for the Holy Spirit spiration I think picks up more on the spirit yeah the question comes to my mind is when that particular language was developed Spirit inspiration yeah because it's not in like yeah or simp but proceed is yeah procession definitely yeah he out that's just scriptural that's right great yeah yeah and and some of this you know it as long as you know what you're talking about and can convey that if you say this you know the sun There's A procession of the sun people might say but I thought it was the spirit who proceeds well I'm talking about the Eternal so this is where you get to flex your intellectual muscles and making the distinction between AD intra and add extra don't do that don't be that guy but but yeah no you're you're right there's two terms for the Spirit both are perfectly acceptable but a distinction needs to be made between the son's procession from the father in terms of that intra and the spirit's procession at intra and at extra insiration then not having at extra we would say spir no I think that's fitting and appropriate too he proceeds from the father and the son heated from the father being mission to flow out of the Adra so it's almost yeah make it distinction I mean if you want to make a distinction between procession and spiration you can write write the book no thank you okay and then publish it [Applause] right all right let's see here okay so that that's what he deals with over on page 82 he talks about the spirit and grieving the Holy Spirit sort of toward the bottom do not grieve the holy spirit of God by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption the holy spirit is not more grievable than the father considered either according to his divine nature or his personal distinction in the strictly theological sense of course the spirit is not properly grievable at all since he is the impassible God and cannot be subjected to suffering that's great and then the footnote that's great Lancelot new brothers start meaning business you're going to name your son Lancelot or musculus one of my favorite or no Wolf Gang musculus is one of my favorite Theologian names Wolf Gang musculus call your kid Wolf Gang musculus and then your last name that's impressive anyways Lancelot Andrews captures the sense of the verse in a sermon on it we may on our parts grieve that is do what in US lith to grieve him since if it were possible by any means in the world the grief could be made to fall into the Divine Essence we would make it happen but owing to the high super eminent Perfection of his nature that is not capable of it the spirit is not in fact harmed so again The Grieving of the spirit is an improper predication that tells us something about God and his anger toward or his uh uh opposition to sin and our sin in particular so it's a an improper way to speak that doesn't mean it's false it means what it teaches is true but you cannot properly predicate of any of the Divine persons a movement or a change from one state to another God doesn't go from a place of blessed happiness to grief he doesn't go from the place of you know up on the top of the mountain down to the bottom of the valley that's language calculated to teach us it's not language calculated to describe fluctuation in God all right and then on 84 he deals with the the the spirit's procession from the father he's going to deal with the father and the son in the next chapter but here specifically the chapters on the Holy Spirit and the father and we know that the spirit proceeds from the father so about the second paragraph on 84 the question matters because the father and the Holy Spirit would have stood in in an eternal relation to each other even if we had never existed if the spirit had never hovered over the face of the waters to form and fill the cosmos he would nevertheless always read always already have been fully Alive with within the being of God one of the the Trinity Spirit of the father and of the son in this chapter we have traced the spirit coming from the father to us this is his coming forth his being sent outward his mission but behind that mission is the Eternal procession remember that mission in trinitarian theology is a special word for the way a person of the Trinity is present to us creatures on the basis of an eternal procession within God that Eternal procession itself is what we need to say something about now again the temporal misss reveal to us something about eternal process and here specifically he invokes jesus' words with reference to the sending of the spirit so when Jesus taught his disciples about the Holy Spirit he told them that they would be empowered when the helper comes whom I will send you from the Father the spirit of Truth who proceeds from the father that's the acts 2:33 he's at the right hand of the father he sent the spirit he sent this what you now see and hear so notice the sending and the proceeding first he describes the mission I will send and then he describes something deeper than the mission who proceeds from the father Jesus goes out of his way to underline where the spirit is from and that from this has two levels sent and proceeding from in fact you can turn there to John 15 it's very very important passage John 15 encapsulates both sub Mission and the Eternal procession 15:26 but when the helper comes remember he introduces him in chapter 14 at verse 16 I will pray the father and he will give you another helper that he may abide with you forever the spirit of Truth whom the world cannot receive because it neither sees him nor knows him but you know him for he dwells with you and will be in you I will not leave you orphans I will come to you and then in verse 26 of chapter 15 but when the ER comes whom I shall send to you from the father that's the day of Pentecost the spirit of Truth who proceeds from the father that's the Eternal procession so for somebody to say well you know all that Thomas aquinus language and Notions and relations and all that that's all just extracurricular no this is a proper reflection on what the scripture teaches we didn't make up John 15:26 Jesus talks about ascending of the spirit that's going to benefit fit the creature and that spirit is the one who proceeds from the father there's not it doesn't get clearer it doesn't get more obvious than when you start to actually investigate scripture if you went downtown today and talked to the Jehovah's Witnesses they would start telling you how you know it's all made up and the the doctrine of the Trinity was because of the Council of NAA and Constantine and politics no absolutely positively not they have a little booklet called should you believe in the Trinity guess what they conclude no and it's just full of garbage it's just not good stuff you go to scripture and again you may not be able to articulate everything and you know post scriptural confessional and creedal language but you have to be appreciative of the fact that the word became flesh and dwelt Among Us that word who was God well he became flesh dwelt Among Us he goes into the upper room with his disciples and then he speaks about this other helper and when he comes whom I shall send to you from the Father the spirit of Truth who proceeds from the father he will testify of me you cannot miss the fact that there is one true and living God and that the Bible tells us the father is God the son is God and the spirit is God yet not three Gods one God so it's it's there and so Jesus specifically highlights that notice on page 85 the word proceeds occurs only once in the New Testament here in John 15:26 theologians have recognized its special status as a guide to Discerning the spirit's Eternal from nness Gregory of naanis appealed to it directly as a term introduced by a truly Superior Theologian that is Jesus himself to say that the spirit proceeds from the father is to locate him within the being being of God recognizing him as above every creature since creatures come forth from the entire Inseparable tribe God it also picks him out as being a distinct person from the Sun since proceeding is not the same as being begotten it's just beautiful right it it it makes sense so people say well the Trinity doesn't make any sense those are people who haven't studied it those are people who are taking a shot in the dark those are people that have been exposed to Jehovah's Witnesses or to you know some bad internet theologians when you start looking at scripture and you start looking at the Creed you go wow the Creed are just telling us what the scripture says they're just defining for us in ter terminology that's calculated to protect what we find in scripture it's beautiful dropping down a little bit the nyine Creed picked up this exact phrase in its statement about the Holy Spirit calling him Lord and Giver of Life who proceeds from the father who with the father and the son together is worshiped and glorified saying that he is worship and glorified together with the father and the son is to escon him fully within deity along with the other persons of the Trinity while using the John 15:26 phrase he proceeds from the father points out the spirit's personal or hypostatic distinctness so that he's worshiped with the father and the son indicates that he's consubstantial with the father and the son he's of the same substance he's of the same Essence one true and living God in this Divine and infinite being there are three subsisten it's really glorious stuff and then over on page 86 the Holy Spirit within the divine life comes forth from the father in a particular way and that way is distinct from the sons as the church fathers often pointed out if the second and third persons came from the first person in the same exact way they would be the uh two sons of the father they're not you've got the eternally begotten son and you've got the spirit who proceedes from the father and the son and then he gives your G uh geometry figure there and indicates the difference in terms of the procession uh or the distinction in terms of the procession so and then he quotes good guys that's a plus plus about old Sanders here he quotes good guys so he definitely is going to deal with um the sun next time and the Holy Spirit but really good emphases in that chapter very helpful and I think very clarifying at least at the level of of of worship and prayer and the relation between the father and the spirit so any questions or comments on anything that we've looked at today go ahead you look like you're pondering well I was thinking back when we started about this Spirit um I don't when God spoke in the Old Testament he was speaking through the spirit am I right it's not like Adam was hearing like walking with God in a literal Garden he was hearing the only way we can hear God is through the spirit am am I going down the right Road um yeah you know when you go back to the Garden it was a Lal garden and you know but but yeah Walking with God I think is is communion with God yeah how all the particulars are worked out there I would assume based on what the New Covenant tells us that that from through an in motif is still present so however that flushed itself out in in the garden yeah because I mean even now just starting this study in this book and thinking about the spirit in like whatever we understand in the preaching whatever it's the spirit that is like I got to be careful with words but we can't understand stand apart from the spirit the spirit is what is making known everything to us and the spirit is working in in everything that we do when we're thinking and doing the spirit is what is actually communicating to us but remember Inseparable operation so anything that happens father son and spirit are involved and anything add extra so the the the Divine Essence the one true and living God is responsible for everything outside side of God the the the distinctions or these Appropriations help us to think in terms of the three but yeah in terms of the enablement and and the Practical day in day out life of the Christian it's Spirit we need the Holy Spirit and that's again an emphasis that at least it appears is more celebrated in charismatic or Pentecostal circles than it is in the reformed whereas in the reformed we should actually be a lot more spiritmind than than than we are and of course to be Spirit minded is to be christm minded and Son of God minded and justification by faith alone minded and of course to be Spirit minded and sonm minded is to be father minded in the glory of God over all things so I think these Inseparable operations Keeps Us grounded in terms of the living and true God and then the Appropriations Keeps Us grounded in the tri Unity of that one living and true God so I think we want to make sure that we don't you know cut off either of those truths and then with the Appropriations we appreciate the spirits work in us the sons work for us to be sure the father's election and predestination but yeah the day-to-day operations I guess is the way I would look at it it's the spirit that's active when we pray when we read our Bibles and of course you know we can ask the spirit guide us lead us I'm going to read you know I I when Pastor barcelos I think it was in either our podcast or might have been might have been actually at the conference when he said the weird Prophecies of uh balum I want to tell them strange is probably a bit better way I mean they are weird I'm not going to lie to you but but that feels a little bit harsh they're enigmatic they're a bit of a puzzle but but you know if you're going to read those weird Prophecies of balum it's not wrong to ask the spirit to help you because it's tough I mean I've read Beal on that I've read stuff I still don't think I know what's going on at least you know I I think I got the idea but so so yeah the spirit is the onboard sort of presence of God in our in our daily lives and so when it came to the beginning question question of people in the Old Testament have the Holy Spirit what to me I'm thinking well they had to have because it's not like the spirit is sitting right here in front of me like shooting things into my brain he is actually what is helping me to understand the things that that God is saying to me CU without him it's not just like it's some filter or something that shoots into us he is in us he indwells he indwells the people of God if you're understanding the word of God I would think that you would have to have the spirit oh absolutely and I think it as well helps you know there's a class of professing Christians that teach that you can be demon possessed a Christian yeah Christians can be demon possessed um so yeah greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world so it you know Christians can do some miserable things but being demon possessed is not yes so just want know thinking about God's Providence over non-believers yeah and like you can get like uh even like bam who prophesies so that's the Holy Spirit giving him those words yeah and can we say like you get a guy like Trump who does some good things is that the spirit yeah the good things that that nonel do he say believe me yes it can you attribute the good things that non believe is do to the holy Spirit can you say are there common operations of the Holy Spirit I would suggest that yes because there's common operations of God right some people enjoy common Grace um they're restrained from being as bad as they could possibly be whether I don't know that I'd make the direct connection between a trump quote and the Holy Spirit I mean that that would be going a bit far for me but but yeah I think any good that happens in in the the external world at extra is attributed to God and His restraint and his providential dealings yes just thinking about the spirit again before Christ and after but then trying to understand the great outpouring next too would it be safe to say before the spirit end like 2,000 or before Christ in 2,000 years after Christ The Influence might be around the same now we have the New Testament so the spirit here is helping us understand the New Testament but if it was back then they would have understood it too and so at Acts 2 it's more like much of that has ceased and a lot of it was just symbolic showing that now the spirit is going to everyone not just the chosen people and U but uh it's not we don't need to like I guess most of it ceased right it's Revelation back now that sealed up the speaking in tongues and so really just if if the folks before Christ had the spirit the same as was us and they had the New Testament then would they be exactly where we are right now I would say that especially with acts I think a good way to understand acts is that not everything described is prescribed I think a charismatic reads acts and comes away saying we need to speak in tongues just because something is in the Bible doesn't mean it's prescriptive for our conduct so whatever happens in the book of Acts is not necessarily prescriptive so the spirit comes and then they spoke in tongues well charismatics or Pentecostals take that say well the sign that you've received the Holy Spirit is that you spoke in tongues that's not how to read that whatever is described is not necessarily prescribed I'm not sure that I would say that that it was symbolic I would say that it fulfilled what was prophesied in the prophet Joel in terms of the the age of the spirit which is the age of the Messiah so the Eternal processions are manifest in the missions of the Incarnation and the procession of the spirit so so what happens in the New Covenant is everything that was prophesied so it's not symbolic but it's actually literally fulfilled and then what we have going on is continu continuation of that without some of the accouterment without the tongu speaking and prophesying because we need to recognize that that was for a specific purpose to give us you know the word of God until the the end of the New Testament or the completion of the New Testament Canon but when you look around in the world you see that we're in the Messianic age it doesn't look like what we might conceive we want everybody to be a Christian and they're not but there's a whole lot more Christians now than there was you know in that setting the extensiveness of Christianity credal development the doctrinal development in terms of the church and and her focus upon scripture I mean the there's been a lot of advancement I think you know U um in our discussions of eschatology and you know postmillennialism and and the gradual building of the kingdom of God we can never minimize the actual accomplishments of what has gone on I mean we are benefact factors of a great deal of of guys that went before us if you look at a map in the first century you'd have you know a bit of light on one small geographic region you put that light on the globe today and you've got lots of light all over the place again not as extensive as we hope um not as as felt as we'd like but the gospel is going forth conquering and to conquer Jesus is building his church from from every tribe tongue people and Nation so so the effect of Pentecost is with us today so I would not want to use that it was you know it it was a fulfillment it was a realization and then there's lasting benefit because we are in the age of the Messiah and the spirit we are in the age of those the uh the effects of those temporal missions so they happened in time they happened in place but there's abiding results for the life of the church so now we have Jesus at the right hand of the father we have the Holy Spirit given by the son when we come to church tomorrow and we pray send the spirit for the Salvation of Sinners I think we've seen that realized at least to some degree here I mean every time one of our young people wants to you know get baptized and join the church we ought to think in terms of Jesus is doing what Jesus promised to do and he's doing it by the power of the spirit that he has sent to the church so that he's not leaving us as orphans he's is coming to us in that that way that he specified so but when it comes to the the supernatural phenomena in the book of Acts just because it's there doesn't necessarily mean it needs to be here but again I would argue that the Regeneration of a sinner is as much a demonstration of the power of the Holy Spirit as tongu speaking in a Believer yeah so we we received all that Revelation so moving forward from Christ we now have the new Testament and with the power of the spirit we can just grow far greater because there's so much more to learn now because so much more has been revealed but I'm just trying to still think before Christ and then us 2,000 years later the Spirit dwelling inside of us is going to be about the same but because practically we so much here for the New Testament we just grow much further practically yeah so as Phil points out in the Old Testament if you were looking in faith Messiah we know that's because of the spirit 1 Corinthians 12 12:3 nobody can call Jesus Lord apart from the spirit if you were praying if you were assimilating and understanding truth it was the power of the spirit at work in you take not thine Holy Spirit from me David prays or David says but yeah so we have the same benefit but at the larger macrocosmic level more spiritual resources for the advancement of the church and that was all built in right old Covenant New Covenant huge difference old Covenant this nation New Covenant Every Nation so in order to get this nation not as much of the presence and the power of the spirit as in the nations of the earth so by Design and by prophetic announcement there's going to be more spirit in this age of Messiah because there's more ground to cover in terms of getting you know every tribe tongue people and nation that make sense yes sir a question from Alani and the manual okay go ahead um yeah um I have a question it's not really related to our study in the book today but um I've been thinking about it for some time um does would would you say that the spirit begins to indwell us before regeneration in order to give us like us [Music] or yeah that's a good question um you know there's a typically when we speak about the Ordo salutis we're we're treating it in a logical manner versus a strictly chronological manner so it's hard to nail down you know he he he had faith and then he was justified well we know that faith is a gift given by God we know that you know I I think we can ascribe well we can ascribe regeneration and being born again to the presence and the power of the Holy Spirit um I would suggest most likely it's at that time or as a result of the new birth that the spirit conveys Upon Us The Graces of faith and repentance so if we we would get the spirit but there wouldn't be you know and then four years later we believe and are justified by faith so so logically we we receive the spirit because the spirit makes us alive we receive the spirit in the sense that we now have the gifts of faith and repentance and then we exercise that Faith we're justified by faith in Jesus Christ so I would suggest you know just off the hip um logically yeah but chronologically again it's hard to nail everything down and then in Ephesians 3 I'm sorry Ephesians 1 it it does seem to place the spirit after faith in Jesus so notice in Ephesians 1:13 in him Christ you also trusted after you heard the word of Truth The Gospel of your salvation in whom also having believed you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the Redemption of the purchased possession to the praise of his glory so there in Ephesians 13 you you believed on the Lord Jesus you you heard the word of Truth The Gospel of your salvation you believed and then you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise so chronologically there in Ephesians we believe the gospel and then we are sealed by the Spirit but again logically if you look at the entirety of the utos solutus we're dead in our trespasses and sins Jesus tells Nicodemus that you must be born again or born from above the emphasis there is upon the holy spirit so I would suggest that we're born again by the power of the Holy Spirit he grants us The Graces of faith and repentance so the reflex action of regeneration is Faith In Jesus so so there's not you know this came up years ago at a Bible study that you know can somebody be regenerate and not justified in other words could there be time between the New Birth and when the man believes the gospel and I said no I mean it's not you know in 2005 I was regenerated by the spirit and then in 2024 I gave my heart to Jesus that doesn't work that way so again we deal with things logically uh the chronology is a bit more difficult to locate or pinpoint with specificity but based on you know larger readings from just Ephesians 1:13 which is obvious you believe and then you're sealed but how do we get to that place of belief so if we ask that question we got to that place of belief based on John 3 and jesus' words to Nicodemus so we're we're regenerated Born Again by The Spirit The Graces of faith and and repentance are conveyed to us and then we believe and and then we're sealed by the spirit which probably speaks of his formal office in terms of uh uh the auto salutis he's the seal the guarantee of what Christ has secured and what the father predestined so does that make sense yes thank you okay all right good if I can uh I say one thing for a moment you sure can this this um existence the problem through in is I think has massive implications for our uh for the preaching of the word as a you know as a pastor just that's you know to realize that the Puritans and others recognize the reality that that the preached word is the word of God being conveyed to the people and I think you know which is what you know they they use the word the unction right we needed as as a preacher you needed the unction or else there was nothing and I think it's you know through the through the preaching of the the inscripturated word which points us you know pointing us to the the Incarnate Word the Christ you know when that comes through the through this the spirit isimportant this is Ephesians 4 right like that that Christ is given GI to the Church of pastors and teachers um to to give us the knowledge of the Son of God so we got so that we can come to a to a complete man or a perfect man um you know so the the imparting of the knowledge of God through the word in the power of the holy spirit is is you know that's what the preaching of the word is so that has obviously you know massive implications for the pastor that U you know but also for the people that that that church is not a take it or leave it kind of thing that we just sort of do but this is this is God's way for you to hear from him every Lord's day through the preaching of the word if it's if it's done if it's rightly divided if it's pointing you to right yeah amen I agree and on something completely unrelated but it was sticking in my head it's numbers 11 the two men had remained in the camp the name of one was elad and the name of the other mad and the spirit rested upon them now they were among those listed but who had not gone out to the T Tabernacle yet they prophesied in the camp and a young man ran and told Moses and said elad and mad are prophesying in the camp so Joshua the son of nun moses' assistant one of his choice men answered and said Moses my Lord forbid them then Moses said to him are you zealous for my sake oh that all the Lord's people were prophets and that the Lord would put his Spirit upon them and Moses returned to the camp he and the Elders of Israel I think there's a direct link between this Joel 2 and Acts 2 this age of the spirit and the power of God coming upon a great number of people so anyways that bugged me that I forgot that passage and I wanted to make sure we ended on that happy note all right well let's pray Our Father in Heaven thank you very much for this wonderful and stimulating study into the doctrine of the Holy Spirit we thank you that we come to you in him and through the son and bless our churches tomorrow we pray that your word would be proclaimed we pray that Sinners would be saved by the power of of the Holy Spirit and that the Saints of Christ would be more and more conformed unto His Image and we thank you that youve not left us as orphans we thank you that we're not alone in this world that we have the Holy Spirit that we have the word of God and we praise you for these good things and we go ask that you would go with us now bless our our our work day today keep everybody safe and cause us to be able to accomplish many good things here and we pray through Jesus Christ Our Lord amen