← Back to sermon library

all right well I'm Jim Butler the pastor of the free Grace Baptist Church here in chilak British Columbia one of the things that we have done in our church is in ask fgbc anything and basically people submit questions to our Tech fellow uh whim Kirk off and then he sifts through them and then we try to answer them so we've done this once before mik uh Pastor Kirk Patrick and I we got through quite a few questions so I thought today we'd have doors Jim renahan and Richard barcelos help us with this next batch whatever they don't get through uh then Mike and I will hopefully take on in the next couple of months so it's a good thing uh good questions that have that have Arisen I know that during sermons or preaching or teaching often times something will be mentioned and if it's not directly the focus of the sermon it can produce or create questions in the minds of people so I think this is a very good Avenue for us to dig deeper and further explore some of these things that God's people are pondering so as I said we have plenty of material but first I'd like to ask Dr Jim renahan to give a brief introduction uh Jim and Rich are with us for our conference this weekend so that's why we are visited by the archbishops from California and Texas respectively so Jim well thanks Jim um I am president of international Reformed Baptist seminary in mainsfield Texas uh been doing more or less what I'm doing for the last 25 years before that I was in pastoral Ministry involved in established churches and also planting a church and uh very thankful for what I'm doing and for God's blessing on the work amen and Rich yep Rich Richard barcelos um from U Southern California well Central California originally a pastor in Southern California I teach at irbs teach two classes I'm a department head exotical theology department head there and I have a wife five kids six grandchildren and I'm glad to be here great can you tell us a bit about your family I just think it helps to we're we're approaching our 46th wedd wedding anniversary we have five kids um all of them Believers uh 11 grandchildren two of my sons are Pastors in Reformed Baptist Churches one in Southern California the other in Maine um they didn't purposely get as far away from each other as they possibly could actually they get along very well and regularly contact and Consulting with one another great and as I said both these men are here with us we're starting a conference confessing the faith we hope it to be an annual conference where we basically take a chapter of our confession of Faith so this year the chapter is chapter one of the Holy scriptures so there's going to be three lectures by Dr renahan three lectures by Dr barcelos one of the reasons are a few of the reasons why we've attempted this conference is one we're in a position now as a church we can do these sort sorts of things uh but we want to try and gather up confessional Reformed Baptist specifically in western Canada with a view to to starting a formal Association because we believe that is a good thing a very helpful thing and we believe that this is the mind of Christ in terms of associating with other brothers and sisters as well we wanted to Foster collegial fraternal relations with Brothers not specifically confessional reformed Baptists but three forms of unity gu uh Westminster Confession guys so I would say the I don't want to call it a keynote lecture but the keynote lecture is on the Friday evening Dr renahan it's going to basically show the solidarity between our confessions so there's you know much agreement that we have obviously some disagreements as I explained in one of these sessions last time will all be dead by the time the real controversial stuff come so we'll leave that for our children and our grandchildren but uh we do have a lot in common and it's been encouraging to see many registrations from other men other pastors in the local community so we're looking forward to that as I said just to try to build up those relations and then the third purpose is just further education theology is always a good thing the study of our confession of Faith yields very profitable things for the people of God so I think there's quite a bit of anticipation and encouragement about this conference so we've got a team that's been working on the details and putting it together so we're hoping that God will be glorified that he would be pleased to sanctify and edify his people and should Sinners stumble in we pray they'd have their hearts open and be effectually drawn to our Lord Jesus Christ so the first one is this year doctors renahan and barcelos God willing next year on chapter two of God the Holy Trinity we have Dr James dolal uh scheduled and then Dr Sam renahan so one of the Sons of Jim that he just mentioned the Sons of Jim um there in southern California so both of those men have shown you know a great degree of competence with chapter 2 and that's what we're aiming for we're trying to get men that are that are Specialists men that are very able and competent in these particular areas to bring us good fruit good things that we can consider and I think as well one of the other sessions I'm I think there's a lot of anticipation for with Dr renahan is to set our confession of faith in its historical context it's very important that we get that we'll see that those men were men like us having to deal with the sorts of things we deal with and so I think it would be good for us to kind of go back in time as it were consider the context and then the content of that confession of Faith so looking forward to it now I've just randomly selected who I'm going to ask questions of as I said we got quite a few here and some really good ones when I first saw this document from w my my initial response was I'm not being very clear in preaching or teaching with all of these questions but then as I pondered I do think you know questions in theology is good as long as we're going to the scriptures for our answers but I think the theological Enterprise is about questions and answers you know in our Saturday morning studies we've noticed you know after the nyine Creed comes that wasn't it there were other Creeds that came as a result of good questions if Jesus is is the second person of the Holy Trinity well what does that mean in terms of his Humanity so of course Caledon is the natural sort of progression after concerning considering who Jesus is that way so so I think these questions do reflect thought on the people of God as well it is encouraging to hear from our people I'm sure you guys have met this as well you know I'm talking to soand so I'm you know being asked questions by family members or by friends so the people of God want to be able to give a reason for the hope that is in them and I'm been convinced for the bulk of my life well all of my life as a Christian the Bible and our confession of faith is the goods we have the answers and we just need to be faithful with that so I'll start with Dr barcelos and the question is how is Jesus the truer and greater fulfillment of God's Old Testament People Israel so perhaps before you deal with the truer and the greater there might be listeners that haven't thought through this that that Jesus is the Fulfillment of God's Old Testament People Israel I pass that's a that's actually a really good question because it assumes it assumes uh some continuity and a relationship between ancient Israel and and our Lord so that would be promise fulfillment type antitype um when you read the scriptures um in their totality the whole Cannon you conclude Adam was the first Son of God and there's a there's a helpful Triad of terms a state three-fold statement that I read Graham goldsworthy I think it was in the early 90s where he said God's people in God's place under God's rule the first time that three-fold description comes to play is is in the garden Adam and Eve are God's people in God's place under God's rule and Adam is in Luke 338 called Son of God okay so then you take Luke 338 back with you and you go oh there's the first Son of God in Luke CH in excuse me Exodus 4: 22 and 23 Israel is called my son and then my firstborn okay and then if you go and read the prophets of course if you continue reading in the book of Exodus you get to the the account the The Narrative of The Exodus itself the Redemption of the Old Testament most Christians throughout history until recently viewed it as God setting the world up for a greater act there's going to be another ex a new Exodus okay so use the language of new new Exodus or new new something how is Jesus the truer greater fulfillment of God's Old Testament so when I'm using new I'm using I mean synonymous with true and greater so so you see The Narrative of the event by the way the event predates The Narrative and the narrative is given the narrative does isn't isn't a theological exhaustive theological treaties of all the entailments of the act of God at The Exodus so that we can say this acts of God can be pregnant with more meaning than the first narration of the act so how do we know this we keep reading the Bible so by the time you get to the the prophets the prophets are looking back at The Exodus and yet and they're scolding the people on the one hand because they're God's Prosecuting attorneys you know Mr Klein but they're also holding out promise for the future in the language of Exodus uh using the language of on the way they're using Wilderness language they're using language of of light taking a taking God's people out of a dark place into a light into light and things like that that's all in the prophets but it started in Moses okay so when you get to the New Testament there's interesting in things that happen you have um you have Matthew chap 2: 13- 15 Hosea 11:1 is cited in a fulfillment Motif this uh happened in order that that which the prophet said would take place or God through the prophet said would take place out of Egypt shall I call my son if you go back and read Hosea you might just go how's Matthew doing this you got to read the entire book of Hosea okay so there's there these technical terms uh that theologians use for that when writers cite the Old Testament and they're in and they're saying this this current event is that which the prophet said took place they're inviting you to not just go read the verse they want you to read the context that's right and the broadest context obviously is the the whole Canon context um but they want you to read the context in the Old Testament because they didn't U have a new testament when Matthew wrote Matthew although Matthew wrote the first he was the first writer of the New Testament but anyway yeah so they want you to go back and read the cognitive peripheral vision of the reader should be like the writers broader than just the citation we should take other data and when you do that there's interesting texts in in the first part of uh Hosea and then in the middle part as well and then in the end that are both looking back and forward so you have this Looking Back To The Exodus and then using Exodus language to look forward Isaiah is probably the biggest example of that by the way is there a time limit because yeah another three minutes yeah yeah so um Isaiah is probably the biggest example of that and you guys know the second Exodus uh Prophecies of of the isaianic isaianic literature there are Scholars that have written books on Isaiah's 2 Exodus in the gospel of Mark Isaiah's 2 Exodus in the book of Acts somebody could write a book Isaiah 2 Exodus uh in the book of First Peter as well so Jesus comes on the scene he's identified with corporate Israel and yet he's an individual person he's also the Fulfillment of the servant Oracles of the prophets uh sometimes the servant oracles are plural corporate sometimes they're individual and even the ones appended appended to our Lord during his Earthly Ministry sometimes are corporate sometimes are individual what's happening Jesus is the new Israel obedient isra doing what Israel should have done but didn't and and of course doing what God's uh um first son failed to do Israel is a is a is a new atom that fails and then Christ is is the last atam so we could go on for days but you said three minutes no that's very helpful very good and you you certainly see those links made by the New Testament authors by the writers by the Lord by the Lord and then then as Apostles why do you think they did what the Lord did because he's their lord lordship hermeneutics that's right that's right there you go lordship hermeneutics that's a good book title great thank you thank you very much all right for Dr renahan I think this is right in your wheelhouse how do the reformed Baptists from scripture in light of their covenantal theology arrive at the conclusion that only a Believer should be baptized yeah that's a that is a good question and it uh deserves a a thorough answer um let me summarize by saying that uh historically in Christian uh theology there's been a recognition that the Bible itself speaks about two kinds of law there's moral law which is a law that uh is written on the heart it's in general Revelation it's available to all people at all times and that is the standard by which all people will be judged at the last day the moral law of God even those who never have the word of God the the moral law is written on their hearts but there's another kind of law that's called positive law POS or what my son Sam calls plus law meaning it's added to the moral law it's not the same thing there's there is relationship between them but it's something that um is not in force until it's revealed positive Law requires special Revelation and it is an obligation that God gives to to his people to follow certain patterns to obey certain actions so that for example Abram was 99 years old and uncircumcised when God comes to him and says circumcise yourself and all the males in your household well was had abraam Abram broken any of God's laws prior to that no of course not he was a gentile and he was perfectly fine as a gentile it's when the Lord came to him and added that law to say You must do this that now there's a requirement for all of the males in Abram's family who becomes Abraham and uh they must be circumcised in order to maintain their uh participation in the community so that's an easy example of positive law now um what we believe is that positive law belongs to uh not only does it require special Revelation but it belongs to specific historical covenants so that circumcision was in place from that Revelation in um Genesis 17 all the way until the coming of the New Covenant where Paul is able to say to us circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing but keeping the Commandments of God is everything that's 1 Corinthians chapter 7:19 that's right um Paul there is making a clear statement that there's a distinction between a moral law keeping the Commandments of God and circumcision or uncircumcision at that point because the New Covenant has come they're nothing so we would argue that baptism is to be defined by the New Covenant itself um Ma I think a a neglected verse that deserves some thought is Mark 1:1 where Mark says the beginning of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and he's not saying uh here's where I'm starting my account of Jesus he's actually using language that refers back to the the original creation but now he's speaking in New Creation terms the beginning of the gospel and what's the first thing that you read as he does that John came baptizing you see John comes as the herald of Jesus as one who baptizes because the New Covenant is being inaugurated in the person of Christ you know a question you might ask is when is the New Covenant inaugurated well I would argue that there isn't a moment M but rather there's a period of time that begins with a text like Mark 1:1 and runs all the way to the destruction of Jerusalem in ad70 so you you have a whole generation in which the New Covenant comes of course it's focused on the cross and the resurrection no no doubt about that but everything in the gospels is leading up to that and is part of the anticipation of the New Covenant so John comes baptizing so our our argument is in Scripture it's illegitimate to take um principles from the old Covenant which is done away with and transfer them over to the New Covenant and make the recipients of baptism the same as the recipients of circumcision baptism needs to be defined in terms of the New Covenant and when it's defined in terms of the New Covenant it is a baptism that's given to Believers John didn't baptize babies and interestingly enough you read some of the Peto Baptist writers John Murray for example John Murray wants to make John's baptism something different than Christian baptism and the reason for that is he's too good of an exog and he knows that John John's baptism was a baptism of repentance and faith we could talk about why faith is involved in John's baptism um um and he so he recogniz it he he recognizes if we let John's baptism stand as a Christian baptism then we have real problem in terms of baptizing infants so he tries to separate it off where someone like John Calvin doesn't Calvin recognizes that that's Christian baptism uh those who were baptized by John or by um in in the gospel period there's no record of them having a second baptism after the day of Pentecost or anything like that so that that's the the argument in a nutshell that it's positive law that is defined by the New Covenant and the New Covenant only admits those who are professors of faith in Jesus great I I have a follow-up question because your Forte is historical theology when did that argument sort of become the way to define or the way to defend poed baptism specifically because Abraham circumcised his babies therefore we must baptize our babies as I understand it I doubt I doubt the fathers were baptizing based on that approach to covenant theology that seems to me a more reformational time yeah well you just answered your own question yeah um prior to the Reformation really infant baptism is what we would call sacerdotal meaning that it it gives Grace the application of water to the body allows Grace to enter the heart and remission the priest who does that so the the baby then is a Christian and the baby is on the pathway towards heaven the the Roman Church developed the seven sacraments as the system by which that baby who has received Grace and baptism original sin being washed away now is to pursue the sacraments in order to be saved well when you come to the Reformation that's a real problem because the reformers no longer believe in a sacerdotal system they sacerdotal simply means something that gives Grace it's related to sacramental but it's not exactly the same Sasser Grace doal from the Greek word to give connected with the priesthood specifically the vehicle yes so they they recognize that justification is by faith alone and that the application of water to the body does not um bring Grace into the heart so so something had to be done that's right and zwingley in in um Zurich was the first one to begin the process of arguing that it's not a sacerdotal act based on the priesthood but rather it's um that that baptism is something that belongs to the Covenant and so you have this development of that argument that's worked out in the 16th century and then codified well in many confessions but especially in the Westminster Confession in the 17th century great very good thank you appreciate that all right and then Rich I I I mentioned this one to you when I emailed you because I think there's one this is a brief sort of version of the question it gets later developed or expands a bit later on so hope you did take a peek ahead of the on the list but one of the per uh persons right often I struggle with the idea of Eternity in heaven that there is nothing we graduate from or to what will our quote unquote days in heaven look like aside from singing the Praises of our God I has not seen neither has ear heard all that the Lord has in store for those who love him um you know Jude that's 1 Corinthians Jude 24 and 25 uh in his blameless in his presence with exceeding Joy so you want me to Define what exceeding Joy is like based on my experience what I'm getting at is um you're not sure I'm not sure but I do know this Ephesians 2:7 says this that in the ages to come ages plural this this okay so there's is there time in the in the what we call the Eternal State doesn't sound if we say yes it doesn't sound Eternal cuz it's Timeless but Eternal is used in more than one way you know God's eternity is one thing eternal life for us is is a temporal experience with successive stages of development in this life and I'm going to argue successive stages of spiritual mental solish development in the life to come as well partly from here that in the ages to come he might show the exceed in Riches of his grace and his kindness toward us in Christ Jesus now from this side of things in in the in the already um we haven't tasted the knot yet we well we have in seed form you know in principle Grace is glory in the bud okay so we do have the down payment uh the guarantee the spirit but it's just a snipet of Glory we don't have full-fledged experience of beatific Vision whatever that is you know um so it's hard for us to make the intellectual step from my experience now because it's hard to go to church now you know sometimes you don't even want to go to church and the questioner is going yeah and I don't know how's that going to translate into 247 bathing well here's the thing can you is is God infinite does God have bounds is God limited is he circumscribed no does can the finite are we going to be infinite or finite in the Eternal State finite can we ever comprehend the infinite no no we'll never ex it's weird for us to think about this because you can pretty much become an expert in certain intellectual Endeavors um except the more I try to become an expert in Christian theology the farther the goal seems to be you know the more you know the more you realize I don't oh I didn't know about that article of that book and it takes you into a whole world of thought we so um I think we need to be careful yes not to um unell the glory of God yeah he's he's way bigger than we realize and we're never going to exhaust it's not a bucket that has a bottom it's a it's a bottomless God is infinite he's infinitely blessed happy and he's why did he create I think to share that you know so we are going to participate in God uh and all all I can say is it's it's way better than the best sermon you've ever heard it's way better than all the great hymns you've ever sung or the most spiritual you've ever felt yeah one of the things that I have thought through you had told me many years ago I just asked you about Rick Anderson Pastor in Oxnard I remember he said it's a breathtaking thing so if you take your child to some place that they love Disneyland they come around I don't like to use Disneyland anymore but that's what heed remember argument you come around a corner and their their breath is taken away so when the finite comes into the presence of God most high it's a Perpetual just you're you're you're Blown Away with who God is yeah the glory of God can can I enter into the conversation absolutely I I think that one truth that has to be brought to mind is that we we have to be really we cannot compare god with ourselves right we want to and we read language like we're made in the image of God uh we he made us to be like him but we can't reverse that direction that's right and make God into a greater image of us we may have his image but he does not have our image he is God and there is none like him and so when we begin to think about Concepts that relate to who God is and can I talk can I use the phrase the experience of being God sure okay we we can't enter into that what eternity is is beyond our capability to understand because we have a beginning we have an end um that will come for all three of us that day will be when our loved ones will put us into the grave and that will be the end of our lives on this Earth but that can never be said about God so we we can't understand eternity in the way that God is able to understand eternity I think you're exactly right Rich that that for us eternity will be temporal though for God it is not temporal and yeah so so you're basically saying maintain the Creator creature distinction even in the Eternal State absolutely yeah absolutely yeah yeah you know I was just I was in Utah a couple of weeks ago and of course there the Mormon Doctrine is that we all become Gods the men become gods and the goal of each man is to have his own planet that he saves that he rules over wait a minute whats SS like deal Spirit children yes what a what a bunch of nonsense that is we will never ever be like God we will always be caught up with his glory and so long as we from a temporal position know eternity we will never ever comprehend God as he comprehends himself there there may be a further revelation of his glories that we we are able to comprehend and that we rejoice in but we we must maintain that distinction God able to apprehend able to apprehend okay yeah even with that can we U you know the Ephesians 2:7 verse I I preached it recently I was going to I was thinking about preaching it here I couldn't find the sermon the older I get I lose what what file did I put it in but uh could it be could it be that uh in the Eternal state things God has not revealed about God get revealed to us or are we just going to be students the whole time does does the bible exhaustively reveal to creatures everything God's ever going to reveal to creatures and I would say I don't I don't think so is God free to show more God to us are we going to be reading Bibles in the Eternal state where we need Scripture those are good questions but difficult I think that you know some of the statements in the in the Bible and then himn I think it helps to underscore the the infinite finite when Paul says it's better to depart it's much better for me to go on than be here with you Philippians but it does mean fruit if I am here so so there's this expectation on the on the part of the Apostle and you know I hasn't seen he has by God's grace been given some Revelation that we didn't but there's an anticipation on the part of the Apostles second Timothy chap 4 he knows he's going to die and he's not you know nervously biting his fingernails he says I'm going to receive the crown and so are all those who have been faithful to the lord it's not just him in that category and then of course Newton when we've been there 10,000 years bright shining as the sun it's poetic flourish but I think it does underscore we can't exhaust God if we could exhaust God we'd move on to the next puzzle and that's never going to happen God is way better than we'll ever know and and there'll be no tedium right to to our learning about God that's right right now all of us get tired of reading books and we have to rest that that won't happen we'll be so pleased with what we see and what we know we'll continually seek after more that's right yeah there's there's something else I think that goes on in the Eternal state that maybe gets depreciated sometimes because the two greatest Commandments are love God with all your heart soul mind your strength and neighbor as yourself we're going to be able to do both of those sinlessly there going to be a corporate the city of God the church triumphant yes and I don't know what that's going to be I don't either I don't have that experience now you know the Lord's Day 247 you look it's like and I you know you had mentioned just when we started off you know coming to church at times I mean we don't always have the Psalm 122 I was glad when they said unto me let us go to the house of the Lord so that but but there will be something I think much different in heaven you're not looking for your kids shoes you're not having to Marshall the clan out everybody's 30 that's right everybody's there in the presence of the most high so yeah I'm reminded of um Hebrews chapter 2 and the citations that we have here from several Old Testament texts where it's Christ who comes and leads his people into worship I will declare your name to my brethren in the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to you and again I will put my trust in him and again here am I and the children whom God has given me so even our savior the God man one person two Natures true human nature comes and joins us in the worship of God yes or in the midst of the lampstands in Revelation chapter one just that's where the Son of God you're calling him first chair worship leader right uh no I am not calling him that I'm saying that this Hebrews chapter 2 tells us that he comes into our midst And We Worship the Triune God as he leads us yes yeah I just referred to that little book I think it was on Sunday that Jonathan Landry Cruz what happens when we worship I thought that was very good enjoyed it yeah I enjoyed it very much so yeah lots to think about uh but certainly some creaturely limitations in terms of what exactly it would be now the next question it's a big one and I think it's got a lot of historical Contours whim made a notation it's long it needs to be a bit edited so I think we'll save that one for next time so Jim is there a difference between the Temptations that we Face since we've just spoken about heaven let's really change directions now is is there a difference between the Temptations that we face and The Temptations that our Lord Jesus Christ faced um well I suppose it depends on what is intended by the word difference okay he endured the same temptations that we do not um in the same way that we do because there was no sin in his heart by which they could lay hold of of who he was in his soul and cause him to sin but certain and nor does it mean that he faced every single Temptation that that potentially we could we could face but rather that his his encounters with temptation were real and he was able by the word of God and by the spirit of God to turn them away so I'm not sure what is meant by that word difference if if it's simply uh uh if if it's meant to say were they somehow different because he was the son of God and because he was a sinless human I want to say well he endured what we endure good yes yeah I would think true Humanity means The Temptations that are unique or common to True Humanity exactly if it's not then whatever is not you know assumed is not redeemed so Ten Commandment violations Ten Commandment Temptations that's how I would I would understand it yeah well when you look at the Devil coming to him in the wilderness and the three Temptations they are all in categories that we can easily relate to yes food power yeah yeah there's all those consistent things yeah for sure I thought just to make a book plug it's always good to make plugs the Ste uh Steven Dub's book Jesus and the god of classical theism I thought he dealt with impeccability in in a really good way I I I can't sing that book praise he denied that our Lord assumed a fallen human nature he did I'm so glad yeah yeah when you think about our Lord as the last Adam questions come up like okay the nature assumed by the Son of God was it can we likened it more unto Adam in his Fallen state or us in our fallen Adam in his preall State created state or us in our fallen State and our scripture and our confession acknowledges he he assumed uh a nature like ours um with infirmities yep common infirmities essal essential properties and common so in one sense he's he kind of overlaps the two ages because I think he did assume a sinless human no original sin right in our Lord uh so he has different apparati to work with than us in one sense but he assumed that this side of the fall into sin with everything going on horizontally attacking him and then of course I think his chief enemy was the devil and more times than once um so it's the same Adam could be tempted before he fell as a sinless Son of God in the image of God Jesus could be tempted but doesn't mean he's a sinner but Jesus was tempted in a world not like Adam's World so it's it's harder for our Lord way harder you know yeah the the Fallen of sin Adam's Fallen of sin is just ridiculous it's like you're in Paradise what you doing this is a no-brainer now it's easy easy for us okay um it it was it was a great fall he fell fast hard and I think relatively quick which all this kind of connects with the previous question you've got Adam in the paradise you've got Israel in a Wilderness you've got Jesus in a Wilderness in a Wilderness yeah yeah when you look at the Temptations all connected yes yeah there so much there he invokes the same message Luke Luke calls Adam the Son of God and Luke 338 and then chapter 4 is on he's driven out 40 days okay Wilderness opposite of Adam Adam was driven out but after he sinned but Israel and 40 and you know all it's there's a lot there's more with Matthew out of fegp called my firstborn passes through the waters of baptism out the wildness go with the Waters of baptism all that there's there's I've told my students I said there's more connections than we we're going to ever figure out and most of us aren't going to feel comfortable with all the connections that are actually there if we do figure at least more out yeah yeah it's one of those realities that Adam had all of the the blessings the easy Road Jesus had all of the difficulties the difficult Road he overcame Adam failed that's right yeah yeah I was reading somebody was it could have been t 10 that's probably a I think it was Augustin where he said we we we more applaud somebody's obedience in a difficult situation this side of the fall into sin then then we depreciate or appreciate the magnitude of of the Fall imperfect conditions and he said we we need to go back there and say wait a minute he didn't have you know what Abraham had with Isaac on the mountain there was a lot of pressures on Abraham what in the world what and he had his own heart and his own you know family domestic problems and and the son he loved and and the son he loved where's the sacrifice Dad yeah that's a tough scene yeah I think it was Augustine that was saying we need to go back and look at the fall of Adam and call it what what it was yeah what it was it was a tragedy the biggest tragedy of man's making that and you know who's behind it the serpent who is who is the serpent the devil the from the beginning by the way the liar from the beginning not that he was created as a liar but from the beginning of man's experience with him all he does is lie now go back and read Genesis 3 and keep that in your head these are lies he's lying this is not what God said yeah and it changes the way you you anyway I was going to say apparati you must read big books with lots of footnotes that was pretty impressive apparati all right the next question is for you appar no it's good I was I'm impressed uh this is a good question and I i' I haven't said that for all the questions they're all good questions so you know the the bulk of them are coming from our church again I was trying to find a bit of Solace well you know Mike's Church n whim said they're pretty much all our people so I do want to communicate to our dear Brethren these are great questions it is good stuff to think through but this one in particular I know it comes up quite a bit can I apply Old Testament promises to my life sometimes a verse is Meaningful to me although it seems that I took it out of context and then there's a particular example Jeremiah 29 111-133 that's probably a text that's been used at every Christian School graduation I know the plans I have for you that's right you're going to be a success Junior and it was a letter to the Exiles in Babylon so I think that's a really very good question so he said it was for you well we yeah well there's a there's a really Broad and universal statement in 2 Corinthians chapter 1 all the promises of God are yay and amen in Christ Jesus so I think that we have to distinguish uh promises because he wouldn't want to do the same thing with the threats and the old Covenant can I personalize this threat you know make it my own threat exactly no it was a historical event under a unique covenantal Epoch with his with temporary purposes that's served its purpos but even from those if you read the confession carefully and I think scripture you can gain you know principles from that and Paul does that from Deuteronomy 25 and 1 Corinthians 9 and 1 Timothy five musling the ox and all stuff he draws a principle that you need to pay your pastor from that so there there there are ways to do it some of the texts are would be you know like that one it does have it was the people of God in Exile but somebody's going to say well we're in Exile too in one sense so is there a principle there yeah what is it probably not what we usually make it you know uh you probably aren't going to be an astronaut yeah I we overinflate the promise and ourselves in lie of the promise so U I don't know if I have a really good answer for it but some of these that's a good question I mean how do you take what are promises to ancient Israel um and apply them to Christians now I I think it's a good emphasis though to remember Covenant uh you know if Israel is being Deuteronomy 28 I don't think a young guy who may be struggling with a couple of sins or you know things that are common can read Deuteronomy 28 and conclude he's going to be exiled and he's going to get you know reap disease and all those consequences I mean again generally you do bad things God is a just judge but we need to be cautious not just in the application of those curses but in the blessings as well to take an old Covenant promise unique to Israel and this seems to happen a lot apply them to America you whatever God said to Israel old Covenant is true of of of America today I you know that here what you just did is you distinguished um covenantal epochs or eras um and you distinguished between moral and positive law so some of these threats and promises are very positive very anchored very connected to the time in the land yeah right so yeah do you have anything else you want to add to that no okay there's not one text that you Muse on often in the Old Testament that you take for yourself can I just say one more thing the first Timothy and 1 Corinthians use of Deuteronomy 254 is is paradigmatic I think okay so you have these weird civil laws about animals and Paul extracts a principle from that and says therefore I think he's saying this Thou shalt not steal P pay the man yeah what what you know what what he's worth and so even in the positive laws that are fulfilled um there you can if you dig deep enough you can get a principle a moral principle behind that that's being applied in a specific Redemptive historical context that doesn't entail to you know to this day but the principle does and that's that's the hard work of of yeah I think that's where you know strategies like well whatever is true in judicial law in the Old Testament must be applicable to the US OFA that that's an easier tactic at on one level I a very difficult thing on another level but but the the going through because there is a connection between the decalogue and chapter 20 of Exodus and then 21 to 23 these things were concrete applications in terms of their Civil Life yeah right and there's a lot of things there like our confession says the general Equity whatever that means there's something there for us to use but it's not a one for one transference moving from old Covenant to New Covenant therefore and it's the therefores that I think get us into a lot of trouble and it does not take into consideration those Redemptive movements in history yes very excellent here's a something I've I I share with students sometimes I'm sure I shared it from the pulpit as well the nature what is scripture it's a written word of God scripture is organic because it's from God it's all connected somehow some way it's Progressive and this helps hopefully with answering this question and it's climactic and the climax is not you and me it's not our problems it's it's the Incarnation sufferings and Glory of Christ that's the big boom the crescendo you know the drum roll please and the symbols are going Galatians 4:4 why do we have a Bible to present the mediator of salvation for the glory of God um and if you take that with you reading some of those things you you don't read them as personal you're looking for something bigger you know that's right and I think we all need a dose of looking something bigger look for something bigger than yourself right in the overall trajectory of what scripture is revealing to us yeah not not wanting in any way to deny what we've just said because I wholeheartedly affirm it but I think we also have to be careful that we don't phrase ourselves in such a way that we remove the Old Testament from the Christian believer amen 100% you know it it was the only Bible of the apostolic age as the New Testament was being written when Paul writes his famous words about scripture in second Timothy chapter 3 first he's referring to the old test and then to the new added to the Old Testament so the Old Testament is a Christian book and it needs to be understood as a Christian book but with a careful understanding of the progress of of um uh Revelation and the the progress of the covenants and the difference between uh old Covenant and New Covenant and how we understand those laws so you you know what put this into my mind is you ask me the question is there an Old Testament text that you Muse on my answer actually would be yes when I sign my autograph in books I I have an Old Testament text that I always put there it's it's because the Psalms have become so important in my life you know and uh I see Christ there and I want those psalms not just to be nice religious poetry that can soothe my heart but I want to be able to see in them how they do relate to First Christ church and then to me as a member of so Jeremiah 2911 is the example I've used it in lectures I point that out to guys that we have to be really cautious in the way that we relate the Testaments to each other so that let me go back to Mark 1:1 the beginning of the Gospel of Jesus Christ there there's a change that comes with the appearance of John the Baptist but still the Old Testament is our book and we need to see it as our book use it and uh be strengthened in in our lives and in our churches I I believe that as preachers we ought to be preaching regularly from the Old Testament so on the Lord's Day morning when I'm in sui I'm going to preach on Psalm 15 right and maybe I'll preach from a Psalm yeah you've heard that one yeah good sermon maybe I'll preach for you guys on Sunday night you know because I I want God's people to hold of the Old Testament and with the Jeremiah 29 passage appreciating it in it context yields a wonderful view of our God these people have been in captivity you're going to be freed from captivity you're going for your sin you're there but I have plans for you this isn't the end of the story and just seeing it from that Vantage Point faithfulness so everything ought to lead us back to an appreciation of God right and I always think that's a good practical application this be a better you or be a better this or be a better that can I just see my God and want to worship him more that that to me is good good application of text it's like the end of the book of habach I think the same idea is there though everything falls apart God is God we can trust in him amen so I have I have plans for you I can look at that and I can say that I know that the Lord has plans for me it's not the specific promise that's given Israel but I can I know that he will glorify himself and he will bring me safely to the end whatever trials I face in this life absolutely that's the consisten that we we hold on to Jim said uh we should treat the Old Testament as Christian scripture you know what Augustine believed the first book of the New Testament was Genesis the Old Testament yeah no I agree 100% so which I'm I'm not an autograph collector uh so if I did ask you to autograph a book what is the text uh Psalm 7325 and 26 oh good which says who do I have in in heaven but you yeah who do I have in heaven but you I think the nas actually translates that beautifully uh whom have I in heaven but you and there is none upon Earth that I desire besides you my flesh and my heart fail but God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever which I think is so wonderful in Psalm 73 itself because Asaf that's right a leader among God's people until he went into the house he into the house of God it's such a great song it's wonderful yeah and and the conclusion he he he he's had his eyes down on Earth on other people and when he finally looks up he says oh it makes sense what have I done with my life exactly you know and and who do I have I'm not going to preach to you right now that you can preach that on night a great great great s and oh there's so much more we do it's the first in the third book of the Psalms right book three Psalm 73 begins book three is the book um Robertson calls it Devastation because it consistently reflects the trouble that has come upon Israel and the failure of the davidic and solomonic kingships preparing the way for the fourth book what's the first book first Psalm in the fourth book at Psalm 90 a Psalm of Moses the man of God which speaks about God's eternity the Kings have failed Israel is falling apart all of this is is true but God is still God and so the fourth book turns our eyes upwards but this is not a discussion about the structure of the Psalms it could be fantastic oh Psalms are fantastic oh yes it's just a a gift from our God to the people of God Amen excellent uh so let's see Rich good question with Israel very much in the news these days can you comment on the position of the nation of Israel with specific reference to the Abraham Covenant the land promise other Old Testament promises in the prophets the New Covenant and special Promises of national salvation according to Romans 11 and also some insight on the history pros and cons of replacement theology that could probably take us to the end of our of our session there is a lot of good stuff in there um so I'll just throw it out what what do we think of as maybe just to boil it down on the one hand what do what should we make of ethnic Israel today and how is that consistent with our views of the abrahamic Covenant old Covenant New Covenant well you said we sharing yeah this is not no we don't use the word share I teach my students not to use the word share you don't stand up in the pulpit and ever say oh no I share with I meant we'll share the response yeah not share but we might not agree get me nervous there I'm not into sharing we might we might not agree as I was taught by my mentor you don't want me to share my heart it's V last thing you want isim Christ share what's on our heart well um yeah so ancient Israel and I think cont you know obviously the context Israel is in the news a lot uh with the dispensational theology that has been rampant over you know the last the way I read scripture that the modern state of Israel is not fulfillment of Prophecy amen amen Israel was um um an an inst Israel was used by God to prepare the world for the Messiah and when the Messiah comes Israel went with it as a national entity you know especially their the religious side of it you know the temple was destroyed I think that's telling us something the church doesn't replace Israel the church is the is the eschatological Israel of Old Testament prophecy okay so when when the church as the Fulfillment of of those of the eschatological Israel of Old Testament prophecy texts comes it uses new the language of fulfillment okay so sometimes about sued I think I saw that on Twitter recently from a guy we lession and appreciate and he was countering this charge or this idea of replacement theology and it and it seems to me that he made much of supered he used it positively I think he I don't want to misrepresent okay well it's yeah it's usually not used positively yeah but I don't know maybe maybe I miss you know I'm not I don't spend a lot of time exting things on Twitter I just the father of Israel was a gentile U which is very interesting Israel uh came into existence through the abrahamic Covenant of promises um and I think we have to distinguish the abrahamic promises uh the ones that terminate in Israel in Abraham's physical carnal seed because there was something actually going on there was something actually real going on but what's connected to that is the older Mosaic Covenant where you have um most people think that's temporary they they want to go back to Abraham say it's not temporary because he uses the language of forever you know but just like we talked about eternity in God and eternal life rest are not one and the same the word Olam is used know Eternal Covenant word it's in Covenant too certain covenants yeah the word Alam forever Everlasting can mean a long time or it can mean God Covenant is over yeah so I think the land uh promises ultimately fulfilled in the Eternal State because because the spiritual Seed of Abraham the Christ uh is going to be a blessing to the nation of the earth Israel was a means through which god Set the World up to do what he did in his son in the Incarnation now there are some things that terminate in Christ and his kingdom that come from the original promises like like the land promises I think they're extended to the I think it it's not fulfilled until the Eternal state so I know there are some some guys that are real good friends of mine that think even the land promises were fulfilled already uh the progressive covenantal ISS hold the view I and I didn't know that until just recently I'm going oh I hold that view but there is a book uh um Owen Owen Martin is that his name no Orin Orin or n good book in the N NST series I thought that was very helpful because he starts you know land starts before Israel and and Abraham it goes back to the Garden I think you have to go you know if you if you look at Adam you go okay did he have a land yeah what was he supposed to do with it cultivate it but also extend its culture outside yeah throughout the Earth he didn't do that who ultimately fulfills that the Lord Jesus and in Romans 4:13 doesn't Paul say that he would be an inheritor of the earth so it's not Abraham because he was a great guy it's Abraham's seed and I think too the seed you know Jesus is the true Israel Jesus is what the Old Testament propes the seed promised to Abraham where's the first seed promise given it's not Abraham no the the land Genesis it's Genesis 3:15 so you have land actually precedes Abraham seed promise precedes Abraham um there there was another oh um this is getting off the subject so I was going to say sufferings and Glory precedes the New Testament it's all over the prophets yeah but where is it first revealed to us I think Genesis 3:15 you know so you have you have a lot of stuff happening before Abraham that I think you have to account for once Abraham comes and Israel's unique covenantal status most people hold as far as I know except dispensationalists who believe that old Covenant ceremonial laws will be enacted in the Millennium which to me is weird like backward read the book of Hebrews yes it's a backward step most people believe the Mosaic Covenant was temporary it was a this world thing but the problem is you read Abraham it looks like well it goes to Gentiles and that's my point it's not just a Jewish thing it's a it's a it's a human thing it's a Sinners thing that are saved by uh and he says not to seeds but to seed that is Christ you know that's right so I think we we often take we don't read it the Old Testament like Christians uh and I and I think traditional especially dispensationalism has trained us to think that way it's their book you know just like one man in Southern California certain large congregation the in the San fernan Valley said the Old Testament is judeo Centric I fell off my chair when I heard that go what are you talking about listen to the Lord Jesus that's right if I could just kind of continuing in this theme Romans 11 the questioner asks about Romans 11 I I remember many years ago my mentor had said that Ian Murray book on Puritan Hope was very good um Revival the inter I change my mind then you change your mind but so I think that I think it's a legitimate Orthodox position that there is going to be a gathering of ethnic Jews into the kingdom of Jesus through faith in Jesus so so that's legitimate I know that you know when I read that it helped me understand at least I thought the Romans 11 sort of emphasis I think op Palmer Robert offers another view or corrective to that so have you read that Palmer Roberts got an article on the Israel of God I think so but um anyways maybe just speak a little bit to that so Romans 11 does seem to envisage or Envision and thus all Israel shall be sa yeah so how how would we understand that you're asking him I'm looking at you I know you are you said we we could disagree you know Ian Murray makes the observation in that book that you know it was this this understanding of a of a massive in gathering a big in gathering of ethnic Jews that impelled much of the missionary Enterprise and you know caused them to you know Westminster larger catechism pray for the conversion of the Jews I think that still in my experience here in a three forms of unity town there is that there is that concern for Israel and it's not a dispensational concern so there's a bit of you know overlap but the Romans 11 option or position I think is not her rical it's John Murray's view John Murray yeah definitely I don't know I haven't read howd but I would be probably thinking it would go that way seems to be the way that that it was dealt with so so does that make sense in terms of this view of the Romans 11 sort of fueling the missionary Enterprise or evangelism or things like like that I'll tell you a story okay okay good it's always good to be a Storyteller you going to are you going to share it are you going to share no I'm GNA tell it share your heart uh I don't know November or December friend of mine contacts me he says you you just blew up such and such a Church's Facebook page I don't do Facebook I don't do social media and I'm say what what's going on well here's the story um I spoke at their Church in uh last year in the fall on and it was chapter seven of God's covenant okay leading up to it the pastor of the church I I have no problem with him doing this he created a meme of my head a floating head and the words to this effect um the church does not replace Israel the church is Israel yeah okay that's what I said I own it you stand by it I I'm I'm not afraid of that well apparently it gets shared shed and shared and shared and a bunch of dispensationalists began to get really upset they called me a heretic for saying those things um there were a couple of terms that they used that were really very strong language it didn't bother me at all I I knew they can say what they want but it's not true but it's a very real issue because a lot of people who are dispensationalists and uh in the charismatic and prosperity movement have been influenced by uh left behind and all of those Tim Le novels and so anytime that you say something that indicates that the church is the people of God is the Israel of God not to neglect the reality of Jewish believers who are brought into the church but there there are no two strands there's no two people of God in on Parallel tracks they're they're brought together in one the New Testament over and over makes that that point doesn't it that the wall of partition is broken down and we we are one so to think in terms of a something special that belongs to Israel is to undermine the very nature of what the gospel is about that brings together Jew and Gentile amen so I you know I know one of the other I was a heretic I was advocating replacement theology or supersessionism no I wasn't that the dispensationalists don't understand this we don't say the church replac is Israel we say that the church is Israel we've been grafted in we are part of it so that all of the promises that were given to Abraham belong to us we are the children of Abraham that's who we are you know um my brother used to to make a point um in is it in early in Luke's gospel where uh Jesus says God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these Stones my brother would ask the question would they be genuine children of Abraham if God raised them up from the stones and the answer is yes because God said that they were that's right God said that they were if if he chose to do that they would be genuine children of Abraham without any DNA that's right so you know that belongs to us we need to claim it we don't replace Israel at all Israel and the church are brought together so that there's one people of God when when you have a picture of of uh the Heavenly throne room you have 24 Elders which I think is a really interesting number because you take 24 you divide it by two you have 12 Apostles and you have 12 tribes and those 24 Elders represent the the totality of the people of God surrounding the throne so you know I I I sort of brought it brought a smile to my face to read all of these posts because I thought these people really they're they're passionate about this I never Ed that word but I just did they're pass about this Shar and there's a reason that I don't use that worded you guys know what it is they don't they don't know and they don't understand they've just been badly taught yes and they make these these charges you know I could it's like water off the the Ducks back proverbially didn't trouble me at all I just except for them and the fact that they they are deep into this thing so that's how I would view it good I I want to back track I maybe he didn't say superade so I don't know but um real quick I want to hear what you have to say I your observation is correct I think it's just bad teaching and it's unfortunate that it's so rampant yeah and that some of the bigger gun famous preachers hold this position because when you disagree with that how dare you know it's almost liberal spiritual you've just spiritual spiritualized away the Bible and it's a rhetoric and it's a I think what what feeds that is is uh a lack of a allowing the entire Canon to be an assistant in interpreting the parts that's exactly right he lose the forest for the trees or however that goes and just listening to Paul you know behind that is Galatians SE peace be upon the Israel of God or we are the true circumcision or there's not a Jew who's in you know externally circumcised internal I can one up you read the red letters of the New Testament Jesus interprets himself in relation to the Old Testament not as a new he doesn't he's not sling casting new meanings on old texts you know you know the motif and especially Matthew but acts and the sermons this is that what we're experiencing now is that which the prophet said would take place it's the Fulfillment of what God revealed would happen and when you go back in light of that and you read the Old Testament you see the the servant the Messiah coming out of Jerusalem with a small Remnant around him and then they're going out from there they're taking light first to the Jewish people and then light to the Gentiles and where is that where's that first where we first told about light theard Genesis one actually but it goes back through the prophets it goes to Moses uh matter of fact in numbers 24 is it one of those weird balum texts you got light you got it's the torch of Revelation and then you have the lion of the tribe of Judah you know is all there all that language is it's all connected and it comes to its consummation in the events surrounding the the sufferings and Glory of our Lord and then the proclamation of it and then the written Revelation the recording of the of the ministry of our Lord and then the interpretation of it in the rest of the New Testament the New Testament is should I mean especially when Jesus says this is that it's like okay game game over this is the way we interpret the Bible it's good enough for Jesus I mean that's a glib statement but it should be good enough for us and then the apostles understood our Lord in relation to the Old Testament just like Jesus did they didn't always get it right by the way yeah remember but who do you say that I am Thou Art the Christ the son of the Living God blessed are you Simon bar Jonah flesh and blood has not revealed this to you but my father who is in heaven and then Jesus says I got to go to Jerusalem I'm going to suffer according to prophets and all and then what does Peter say yeah not going to happen we're not going to let that get behind me Satan but when you get to Acts 2 acts three the two big Petr sermons in the book of Acts he's preaching like Jesus he sounds like Jesus this is that which is spoken by the prophet Joel yeah- which by the way reading JC Rial on the Gospel of John he's got some very pastoral observations when when disciples not just the apostles but others say like is it Martha she has a wonderful christological statement and then and then afterward you're going do you really really believe that you know he says we need to be careful not to impose the entirety of the New Testament on these disciples they're still connecting dots yeah that's right they don't have the resurrection yet they don't have this they don't have Pentecost even immediately after the resurrection they're still connecting they're still scratching their heads a bit yeah yeah you the the Resurrection Day on the road to emus yeah and they're they're downcast though they've heard of the Resurrection they know that it happened and and Jesus is the one who Incognito explains to them and then they rush back to Jerusalem to tell their brothers and then you have Thomas and you have a week I see touch I'm not going to believe and then you have after the resurrection before the Ascension in Acts one uh you know when when are you going to rest theing Israel is it which by the way uh there's a book called It's a really good Alan Thompson from us from Sydney is the author is it the book on scripture the word the clear the acts of the Risen Lord Jesus oh that's a good book that is a good book and section on acts 1 16-8 outstanding outstanding book Jesus basically is is doing what what they asked and he started in the first century acts of the Risen Lord Jesus that's a good and and by the way in Acts 28 just all you have to do is read it think it about all this stuff Paul was reasoning with the Jews about the Christ and the kingdom of God from the Old Testament and he refers to it as the hope of Israel the hope of Israel that's a good book too that new book by uh's that guy's name he's he's Westminster Seminary Pennsylvania Prof it's it's yeah hope of Israel good B makes all these connections and just shows that that this is that Motif is very important this Christ and the complex of events surrounding him his sufferings glory and Pentecost is that which the prophets said would take place as a matter of fact this is in one of my lectures so it's fresh on my head but um when Peter is preaching on Pentecost you know he's going to end up quoting Joel 2 before he quotes Joel 2 he says um God said this would happen in the latter days or something like that that's not in Joel 2 but it looks like it but it's not it's Isaiah 2:2 it's Micah something or other and you know where it first starts the Book of Genesis Genesis Genesis 49 the that one the shil there's a lot more L days okay the latter days are connected to this Shiloh person I think it is who has dominion over the peoples and you trace that through Daniel and all over the place you go all right wait a minute he's putting the context of Joel's fulfillment in a wider canonical context by using two words latter days yeah so it's a trigger mechanism for good readers of the Old Testament by the way you can't understand the New Testament and unless you got a good old and the other way around so Peter before he quotes Joel 2 puts Joel's prophecy in a larger eschatological context that's first indicated to us way back in the book of Jen and it says connected to the Shiloh character there and it's just a lot of stuff and you mentioned the weird balum prophecies there's a lot going on there too I'm supposed to get back into numbers we're going through the pentat on our Wednesday night studies and the balum prophecies I I've heard Beal or I've read Beal I kind of think I get it but at the same time balam's just an odd duck from the pages of Holy Scripture before we you go on let's reiterate here okay because this is really important and it's widespread and rampant among many professing Christians we do not believe that there are two peoples of God on a parallel track We Believe that the gospel brings them together and there's one people of God who will enter into the Eternal State forever so that the charges that are made of supersession or replacement theology are slanderous really they really are and they they I I can say easily they need to stop they need well they won't but I I can say that and I would appeal to people who maybe listening to recognize that that is a Mis um a Mis representation of what we believe we do not believe that the church replaces Israel we believe that there's one people of God so there's no superseding there's no replacement at all that's right yes and I for me since we're sharing here um by God's grace we got converted and six months later I met him and I'm not sure that's the part of God's grace I want no I'm kidding he's been very influential very helpful so but one of the things that I'm I'm thankful in my Christianity is that I didn't have to go through a lot of things I I went he had already gotten into the confession so I didn't have to do some time in dispensationalism or arminianism it was just you know nurtured in a good environment so much of at least back then what I learned of dispensationalism I would hear from from Rich and I just for me it's always been how could you possibly believe that and I mean that in a in an unri I probably do because I got my issues but in in Ephesians 3 Paul takes pains to tell us from the two he's made one new man under Jesus Christ so then you're going to come along and separate that and say well you know that's only for a time and then it just doesn't make sense well it it does it doesn't their system which is which is built off of a a a Herman menic a judeo so what I said before and you said amen I said you got to you got to allow the scripture to help you interpret the scripture or else you're going to and you're going to bring uh your own hermeneutic to an Old Testament text without without considering the New Testament whatsoever you know as Walter Kaiser has this principle of the the analogy of antecedent Revelation okay so antecedent afterwards if the timeline's going this way Genesis Revelation you're in this text you can't use texts over here like like when Jesus expounds on a text that you can use Calvin or you can use Calvin or you can use lexicons created by liberal Germans who are in hell to help you with Hebrew words help you with that yeah so I mean people don't think that way but I try to push him to think that way now wait a minute I can use Calvin or somebody else to help me with this text but I can't use Jesus or the the prophets pick it up Moses you know whoever um so I think it's a hermeneutical it ends up being a a blind spot for them when I was in seminary and I I did go to the master Seminary and I was very thankful for what I got there my our Systematic Theology Prof was a friend of Vern pois and they had a dispensational think tank where they had Wayne gudum I think and Mark Mueller my esteemed professor and uh Vern poy and others were involved at ETS for a few years there and he says you know in my discussions we have all come down to this conclusion the difference between the various forms of covenant theology and dispensationalism is at bottom an issue of Herman her absolutely I think he was right and and and another thing I think that complicates it at a practical level is the political rhetoric as well if you if you question dispensationalism it has been I think how Lindsay made this OB an you're anti-semitic that's a heavy one to lay on a person well that's another charge that was laid against me in that Faceook anite if you don't dispensationalism therefore you're anti-semitic that that's a that's a baseless attack AB that is very rhetorically powerful and hard to get away from you get branded as an anti-semite in the 21st century in North America that's career ending you can be can so you know a theological difference amongst you know interpreters of scripture over however many years that's that's perfectly legitimate that doesn't commit me to anti-Semitism exactly and I would also say that you know a historic Prill obviously an orthodox not one I agree with you know it's not my my favorite but not it isn't loaded with the same sort of baggage that dispensationalism is and yeah it's just a really because there's been this combining of the political and the theological and the Well there must be this really makes it tough yeah what one of the big issues when I was a dispensationalist was was the davidic Covenant the promises of 2 Samuel 7:23 and Psalm 89 and are they fulfilled in the church age or not Church age they already talking like them uh are they being fulfilled now are they imp partial f fillment and then there's a millennial fulfillment you know what what's all that and the more I just I just read the New Testament thinking okay abrahamic Covenant davidic Covenant Mosaic Covenant and all that stuff the more I just came to the conclusion that the New Testament reads the davidic promises as terminating in our Lord's first coming we mentioned Matthew 16 Matthew 16 2 Samuel 7 yeah Son of God will build a house for God that's exactly what is happening there so Jes or Peter confess Thou Art the Christ the son of the Living God well this is davidic Covenant what's the son's house it's a church church local yes and Universal throughout the in adental age that's right yeah and it's glorious glorious wonderful awesome and all by by the way that's all connected to Adam and the garden of too oh yeah since sharing is the word of the day let me share one more thing that comes to mind as a result Our Generation many of us were converted out of uh or in a dispensationalist circumstance I mean when I was teenager we use the new Scofield bible and some I can remember the youth pastor in the church one time standing up saying um if you have the right kind of Bible turn to page such and such if you don't then please turn to to the text have mercy on you repent but um I I can immediately think of a whole lot of young men today who are not raised in a dispensational yes uh environment and so don't have that baggage with them and are doing some really wonderful things in helping to restore uh a an older uh more consistent hermeneutic and theology yes uh I'm I am really encouraged by the Next Generation the younger men and what God is doing and raising them up I I pray that they will stay faithful and that uh their lives will not be ruined by indulging in any kind of evil um but if if they are kept in the way I think the future is really very bright because we have a lot of very fine young man he brought up him you brought up hymns right I don't think so I mentioned H ear did okay yeah yeah it's fascinating you think about older more traditional hnology the the hermeneutic required to get to those lyrics was not dispensational was not and yet I've sung those some of those hymns at dispensational worship services and I think you know you had touched on this earlier but just to reiterate you know the problem of dispensationalism isn't a pre-trib Rapture that's just a fruit of M you know one of the issues it's hermeneutics and if you go in and you end up with the two people of God you divide what Jesus has brought together in my mind you need to go back to the drawing board and examine those hermeneutics because that's not where you want to end up you don't want to say well Paul must be speaking about just this time because there's going to be this Great Divide no the whole point the mystery is Christ as the Savior for Jew and Gentile yeah yeah Gentile inclusion in the Covenant Promises of God goes all the way back to Genesis yeah maybe we can say that the 20th century was a parenthesis there you go a theological parenthesis I like that yeah but it's still interation it does still last though and I you know the political angle too really just adds a whole lot of fuel to the fire and I've heard you know it's hearsay but you know pulpits dispensational pulpits really using the modern scene in Israel in ways that I don't think is good I don't I don't think it's helpful it just stirs the pot and then of course coven theology guys are the bad guys because we we deny you know the place of ethnic Israel and God's political plan that's a lot to heat up on somebody you know I've got my issues but I I like to think that's not it necessarily it's a reminder of the fact that when we stand before God's people we we must speak his words and not our own opinions nor the op opinion opinions that are swayed by current cultural mores and ideas which I think very regularly happens yes in Christian pulpits it really does and we need to be really careful but it's another argument for two things that rich and I both love and that's confessionalism and historic Christianity what what has the church said well let's get beyond the um what did CS Lewis call it the tyranny of the uh no chronological snobbery right yeah let's get by that thinking that we we have the answers now you know what that is that's progressivism that's entered into Christian theology let's hear the voice of Christians Through the Ages believing the promise that Jesus gave that the spirit would lead his people into all truth that's right and let's conform ourselves to that yeah we we've said this at a conference together I think it was was it last fall one of those conferences we wanted to get this message out for to especially younger guys you've you're not a younger guy but you you've already done this a long time ago matter of fact you told me this one time do you read commentaries chronologically and I said you cited him I said no why you go dude cuz you CU you go from 20 to four Southern California me because you go from 20 to 20 commentaries to four real fast yeah you weed out you do learn to weed out and you usually just keep you know the older ones because anytime the newer guys say what the older guys said there's no it's redundant but what the newer guys usually tell you is the size of their toga or something you know and the history of togas in the first century and and you're going I'm not going to preach that to a woman who's got a you know jerk for a husband half the time they fought on the way to church they have seven kids and I to preach about toas that's not preaching you know that's that's background stuff that might help you in your study but you don't need to give that to Dear people so the older com the older guys you read it's just scripture they deal with the text they try to show the relation with other texts and they try to you know encourage you if it's about Christ or if it's about you know promise of God for individual souls or whatever they're not afraid of doctrine of drawing theological point just recently a friend I sent a text to a friend who said hey this professor of Old Testament guy said this about background material and I told you guys this earlier and my friend says who cares shut up and do theology or something like that well I have to say as a pastor in our in our movement if I can use that language or confessional Reformed Baptist Churches I've been very thankful for both of you men in terms of some emphases that I I think have become more pointed and conspicuous the longer you guys do what you're doing and I really appreciate the theological interpretation of scripture you know there is that well you got to read 15 books on what was going on in first century Israel to really get at what the text means god seems to think that people that have the spirit and the Bible no that can be overdone all I need is me and the Holy Spirit but based on you know in Acts 4 or I'm sorry in Ephesians 4 Christ descends on high he leads captivity captive he gives gifts to men those men teach those men preach those men write good books and it's not necessarily the socioeconomic condition going on in first century Israel it's it's what are other texts saying what is the Theology of God's word as a whole saying to me that's always been more important and some of that like you said it can be helpful you know the the the Revelation three you know because you're neither hot nor cold it helps to know that you know one city had hot springs and the other city had cool refreshing water but you don't need that to get jesus' message out of Revelation 3 and I think when we teach people that you need that in order to get this we're missing something there so the Bible comes packaged in such a way that you know the law of the Lord makes wise the simple if you got the spirit and you put your mind to it and you read and you're prayerful and dependent upon the Lord we hope and expect that you're going to be you know decent Theologian the woman that's got the struggles got the problem with her husband she needs good Theology and she can access that good theology without dead Germans that wrote lexicons that are in hell as you so kindly put it a few minutes ago pictures picturesquely yeah so I just you know as a pastor on the ground you know seeking to preach through scripture and do so in a confessional context I really have appreciated both of you guys and as I said the emphases that you bring to the table and I'm I'm just glad you're with us for this weekend but glad that you're available to us because I I think I'm not speaking alone I think if you were to take my my comrades in arms the guys at the local church level we would all say the same thing and I'm sure you're going to hear that from the guys that are here this weekend they're probably going to come up Dr renan thank you for your exposition of the confession it's helped me tremendously thank you for your book Trinity and creation thank you for your exposition of the Bible so you're known for helping guys with a confession I'm known for helping guys with survival both known as men that are committed to the authority of God's word and have seen that the second London Confession is a wonderful summary statement of that word I I I don't get and this is another thing in my own experience I don't get this antipathy to the wheel if the Wheel Works let's use the wheel why why would we reinvent it the 17th century confessions have stood the test of time they're they're wonderfully biblical they're wonderfully robust and I have found going through the confession in our own church you get more practical out of these old dusty dry Orthodox treatments who writes chapters like Assurance in our second London or perseverance or the recognition that you know what there's times it's like God withdraws his smiling face you got to persevere through that you got to deal with that the typical self-help Christian approach is you know you're doing something fix it and God's face will be on our guys are a lot more biblical much more thoroughly practical I I just don't get this argument that it's tried you know Orthodoxy no can I say something you brought up theological interpretation of scripture I think I have a section in my lectures for the conference on that but I was you know in the 90s I started reading um biblical theology more and after a while I realized a lot of the book are kind of redundant saying the same thing okay and then I got to know Dr renahan in the late 90s and what he helped me with was a theological slash or Dash historical reading of the confession and I don't know if I've ever told you this but the way you read the confession is the same way you read the Bible you read it sideways so tell us what you mean by read the confession sideways and how that relates to reading the Bible sideways yeah well um I use that a more refined term more often now horizontally horiz horizontally well when it comes to the confession I I would argue that early on in the chapters they're laying down a foundation the latter chapters are building on that foundation so I try to teach my students pay attention to what is stated in the first few chapters early chapters let's say up through chapter six and notice then later on how those threads are woven into everything that comes afterwards and when you're later on in the confession think through what what is this picking up so that for example the doctrine of God okay the doctrine of God is foundational every time that you see the word God in the confession you ought to think of chapter 2 and what chapter 2 says if I remember correctly I think there's 15 chapters where the first word or the first phrase includes the name God in it that you're so you you don't just treat that as okay the divine div being no you you think about all that you've learned back in Chapter 2 who is the one who grants repentance or gives Faith or who brings us to the end in eternal life or who is the one who will that his son would be head over the church all all of those things so that's reading it horizontally or I used to use the word sideways it's a good word but horizontal means it's easier for people to grasp all I think and that's how we have to to think about the Bible as well you know sometimes I I wonder if an illustration of it is let let's say that you are suddenly dropped down in a foreign country that you you don't know the culture you don't know the language but you're right in the middle and you have to figure it out well where you are is influenced by everything else that happens in that country and its history and its culture and as you grow in your understanding of the language the culture the food the geography if you as you grow in all of those things you're becoming more and more one who is able to live in that country well that's in a sense that's what it's like with the Bible the more that you know about the whole picture yes from beginning to end the the better that it is so I go back to what I said before we we must assert that the Old Testament is a Christian book and that we read it as Christians in light of what the New Testament says I I think Rich has done some great work even within the Old Testament showing how the the more recent Old Testament books are interpretations of the previous Old Testament books and how the prophets don't add anything new rather what they're doing is giving us understanding of what was laid down for example in the law of Moses or the PO the Torah the pentat took Etc yes so that's so I remember just real quick here I remember because there's a new testament use of the Old Testament commentary and I remember you saying and I agreed that there needs to be an Old Testament use of the Old Testament I have subsequently heard that Junius did something like that I think yes but there is a volume now that is the Old Testament use of the Old Testament just quick question have you used it at all is it there is yeah it's a I think dols all recommended it oh yeah we we can talk about that later but I think GK Beal and a team of contemporary Scholars are working on uh an Old Testament use of the old course responding to the New Testament commentary on the New Testament use to the Old Testament okay um so your confession you said start the first six chapters those are foundational take them with you as you interpret go through the rest do should you do the same by taking the rest of it back then coming through here and reading the whole and light of the whole over and over and over again and and things start jumping you go you have aha moments you're going the text hasn't changed it's you know the confession is the same same thing with the Bible Foundation you know was it Sinclair Ferguson Genesis 3:16 to revelation 22 to revelation 22 is a foot is a is a foot Foote to Genesis 35 Genesis 1 has something simar yeah there's so much foundational stuff there that's just assumed by the subsequent writers yes and if we need to we need to assume it it's there it's Revelation and it's it's an interpretive Grid or a help for the subsequent passages but just like with a confession you have AA moments it's it's even more so with scripture yeah you know somebody be preaching like you're going to preach Psalm 15 I guarantee you most of the people if not all um I'm saying most because maybe Mike's heard you preach this before are going to go most of the people that have are more seasoned okay the more you know that Bible the better it is to understand the depth of some of these things they're going to say I've read that I never saw the connections it's so clear to me now so he's not inventing connections and I'm not doing anything that's esoteric and you couldn't do straightforward how about 40 years ago could you preach this sermon no no so you know I've had students especially at a certain seminary in the United States text me or email me and say why didn't you and Dr renan come out on this issue uh 15 years ago I said it would have been Half Baked yeah you know there you you learn you get older you're able to see connections more that you know there's a concept called uh inter biblical ex ex Jesus something like there's different phrases the Bible within the Bible exality there's various forms of intertextuality one is you know all texts are related to other texts okay one is quotation another one is illusion another one is Echo Echo and ask GK deal cuz he that's seems say an echo is a weak illusion and I'll talk about these things but the the the more your blood is bibbling CH Spurgeon the more you see the connections and then going back to traditional himn and I've done this with my people a lot I said look think about what it takes to get to some of these poetic lines here and ask yourself is this just poetry disconnect from the Bible or is there an interpretive method right that we couldn't write that we yeah as a dispensation with with the mo more modern uh hermeneutic we couldn't write the big confessions of the church or certainly the early Creeds right the early Creeds just reduce massive sads of uh of scriptural truth into short piy statements you know yeah I've said it often in our Saturday morning I'm glad they did it cuz I'm not convinced we could do it uh the ni scene the Caledonian and second London but when you see the logic of it the the order the theological order and you're just going this is there were giants in the earth yes there were giants and they and they were very careful exites too the summary is simply bringing together threads from scripture absolutely it's the fruit of Jesus yeah it's not Greek philosophy imposed upon Christianity it's that's a lie from the pit of Hell it's right I agree how do we protect in the beginning was the word the word was with God the Word was God the word became flesh and dwelt among us we have a we got to protect that we're to use these outside the Bible words to protect those inside the Bible not in the word to explain and protect the word that's right and and nowadays it's like ah we don't need that yeah you know I've been using the illustration because we're going through John's gospel dealing with some Trinity stuff and you know guard rails on the road imagine you drive up to your friend's house and all these cars are off the side of the road you say well what what happened well we used to have these guard rails this is playing off of Simply a trinity a drift in Barrett's book we used to have these guard rails but they took them down well you think if you put the guard rails back up it would keep the cars from all flying off the we've taken down the guard rails and we've got bad trinitarian theology but I agree there's many good things to be encouraged about yeah in terms of guys writing now you know doing doing good work so so I don't want to end on or get close to Ending by a positive a negative note we sort of drifted away from the questions haven't yeah we have but that's okay this is a good dialogue let me just see here if we can get oh this is a good one I I think this is really a has a pastoral element to it and I want to defer to you um the biggest fear I have as a born- again Christian is the fear that my children will not be included in God's grace offering growing up hyper calvinist it was implied that children were very rarely can be born again I know that's not true but my upbringing makes it hard to rationalize a young person Understanding God's grace how can I as a parent not only be a proper Steward but also feel confident in my children's belief they are saved [Music] I don't know that you can have confidence that they are saved um but I what what comes to mind as a very simple answer to that uh we have a friend who's a deacon in a church in Arizona as two boys you you if I said his name you'd know him immediately you probably do he one time said to me I make sure that my children go with me to the worship of God every time it's open because I figure that's one more sermon that they will get the benefit of if I if we only went to the morning Services they would lose 50 sermons a year and over the course of 10 years 500 sermons he he recognizes that the best way besides living a Christian life before his children and and all the rest the best way to bring them to Faith is to use the appointed means of Grace we believe that normally not exclusively but normally conversions come as a result of the Proclamation of the word of God right so you you bring your children to the worship you teach them how to sit how to listen um maybe on the way home you converse with them about what they heard ask them some questions create an environment in the home in which they know that they're loved that their parents' marriage is is solid but that the the church is Central in the life of the family and bring them to the means of Grace amen and and trust that God will use the means of Grace to bring conversion into the lives of those children yes you know all my all five of my kids have professed their faith and um I've had other pastors say to me how'd you do it you got lucky how how did you do this and I I'm I'm surprised that they even asked that question because it's not about a a parental method it's about God's grace and about what he does does and of course I pray that my kids will persevere to the end um after I die what will their lives be like and what will they be like when when they're my age I can't know that but it wasn't anything special in our home it was simply bringing them to worship every week um living the Christian life before them teaching children how to sit in church how to listen in church my wife had a whole uh method that she went through of course I was always not sitting with the family because I was upfront preaching and she just brought them along being so that they were able to listen and learn so I I I can sympathize with the question um of course we want to deny the hyper calvinist view that seldom are children converted I I would rather say um if God's blessing is upon it they will often be converted and live a life of Fai until they go to be in his presence but there's no method yeah that's a great emphasis I think Terry Johnson too he's written a lot of books on you know family religion and that sort of thing he really puts a lot of emphasis on that bring him to church and I think we've lost that I think it's coming back I remember you and I talking one time somebody I think it was chrysostom or I think I heard this about Luther I I need some pastoral counsel you know I need some pastoral help so five minutes and then see you on Sunday and we hear that and we oh no they need ongoing Thursday afternoon accountability and I'm not saying that's never a way to go you should be at work on Thursday afternoon Thursday afternoon yeah you should be at work we're loving your wife and kids but Sunday come to church on Sunday that's it's not a magic key it's the means of Grace yeah and it's not you know it's it's always sad to hear the people who do two things one the give up church because of sports yeah so the soccer league is playing on Sunday morning and I want my kids to be in soccer or Little League Baseball so Pastor for the next two months we're not going to be in church or the other thing is they leave the church because another church has a flashier youth program yeah oh we want this for our kids we want them to be able to have fun we want them to learn about the Bible in a context that's fun well seldom are those fun churches really doing any good to The Souls of the the children it's the churches that are faithful in a form of worship that is regulated by scripture where there is faithful preaching of the word it it may seem outwardly boring I I had this this woman came up to me at a conference once no I'm not going to tell the whole story because if certain people listen to this they'll figure it out but um she was telling me how someone told her don't go to a Reformed Church their worship is boring okay maybe it is boring because we sing Psalms and we sing hymns we read the Bible we pray and we have sermons and the sermons are 45 minutes or an hour long okay it's not flashy there aren't special musical groups all of those things are not happening that may outwardly seem boring of course my question is what pleases God yeah acceptable and who's it acceptable to right who's it acceptable to not us it's not it's not to satisfy my desires so parents bring your children to worship and live a life of Faith before them um and trust that God will use the means that he has appointed and I think when that happens PE preachers pastors are cognizant of that and they want to connect with the children and show them scripture and texts and emphasize the gospel and the things that they need to hear it's a wonderful wonderful Dynamic both ways yeah I I love to you know I visit a lot of churches and it's always great to see uh the the six-year-olds run up to the pastor for the weekly hug I I know then that that man yes has has reached that family and that little child loves her pastor even though she doesn't understand much CU she's only six years old there's there's a foundation hands the painting the picture of the sheep of you preaching yeah yeah that's that's those are cool that's one thing I look for as when I go preach elsewhere mhm and I don't tell the pastor if he's there until afterwards I watch and see what the older Saints especially the older women in the church and the kids do with the the preaching Pastor the main preacher and I was at a larger Church a couple years ago and I I didn't tell the the brother you guys know him um what I was doing I told him afterwards I said you pass the test you even in a larger Church they had like four or 500 people there same thing he knew the names of all the seasoned Saints and then all the kids and they came up and gave him big old hug and I thought that's a good sign yeah it's a very good sign yeah so it's you know it's it's really simple yeah it's not complicated yeah and we cannot promise anything to anybody but use the means of Grace Faithfully use the means of Grace in all areas yeah good well I think we'll probably stop there I don't want to launch a new uh thank you both very much for being here this is edifying to me yeah me too yeah it's been a nice discussion and just a reminder we have these already I think there's eight of them that whim has edited they're available on all of our social media platforms I figured I should say that because it sounds pretty hip um you're a hip guy hip guy no you're not I don't know that anybody would describe me that way but uh is typically not the adjective but he's done really good work and there's just a an imp to you know get this good theology good Bible teaching out for people that have questions and perhaps they can share it with others as well so thank you very much look forward to the conference uh as far as the conference is concerned we have the Friday sessions the Saturday sessions Dr renahan will be speaking in Sur in the morning service Dr barcel our church on the Lord's day yes and then you'll be back in the evening to speak for us so and then I take you to the airport on Monday it's been a whirlwind t tour we had a nice time in Boston yeah it was good good to be with you guys there we flew from the east coast to the West Coast yeah yeah we went from the west coast to the east coast to the West Coast well you guys are special yeah yeah yeah Special we know