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This is a good one. I think this 
really has a pastoral element to it, and I want to defer to 
you. The biggest fear I have as a 
born-again Christian is the fear that my children will not be 
included in God's grace offering. Growing up hyper-Calvinist, it 
was implied that children very rarely can be born again. I know 
that's not true, But my upbringing makes it hard to rationalize 
a young person understanding God's grace. How can I, as a 
parent, not only be a proper steward, but also feel confident 
in my children's belief they are saved? I don't know that you can have 
confidence that they are saved. But what comes to mind as a very 
simple answer to that, we have a friend who's a deacon in a 
church in Arizona. Has two boys. If I said his name, 
you'd know him immediately. You probably do. He one time 
said to me, I make sure that my children go with me to the 
worship of God every time it's open, because I figure that's 
one more sermon that they will get the benefit of. If we only 
went to the morning services, they would lose 50 sermons a 
year, and over the course of 10 years, 500 sermons. He recognizes that the best way, 
besides living a Christian life before his children and all the 
rest, the best way to bring them to faith is to use the appointed 
means of grace. We believe that normally, not 
exclusively, but normally, conversions come as a result of the proclamation 
of the Word of God. So you bring your children to 
the worship, you teach them how to sit, how to listen. Maybe 
on the way home you converse with them about what they heard, 
ask them some questions, create an environment in the home in 
which they know that they're loved, that their parents' marriage 
is solid, but that the church is central in the life of the 
family and bring them to the means of grace. And trust that 
God will use the means of grace to bring conversion into the 
lives of those children. You know, all five of my kids 
have professed their faith, and I've had other pastors say to 
me, how'd you do it? You got lucky. How did you do 
this? And I'm surprised that they even asked that question 
because it's not about a parental method. It's about God's grace 
and about what he does. And of course, I pray that my 
kids will persevere to the end. After I die, what will their 
lives be like? And what will they be like when 
they're my age? I can't know that. But it wasn't 
anything special in our home. It was simply bringing them to 
worship every week. living the Christian life before 
them, teaching children how to sit in church, how to listen 
in church. My wife had a whole method that she went through. 
Of course, I was always not sitting with the family because I was 
up front preaching. And she just brought them along 
so that they were able to listen and learn. So, I can sympathize 
with the question. Of course, we want to deny the 
hyper-Calvinist view that seldom are children converted. I would 
rather say if God's blessing is upon it, they will often be 
converted and live a life of faith until they go to be in 
His presence. But there's no method. Yeah, 
that's a great emphasis. I think Terry Johnson, too, he's 
written a lot of books on, you know, family, religion, and that 
sort of thing. He really puts a lot of emphasis on that. Bring 
them to church. And I think we've lost that. 
I think it's coming back. I remember you and I talking 
one time, somebody, I think it was Chris Ostom. or I think I've 
heard this about Luther, I need some pastoral counsel, you know, 
I need some pastoral help. So, five minutes and then see 
you on Sunday. And we hear that and we say, 
oh no, they need ongoing Thursday afternoon accountability. And 
I'm not saying that's never a way to go. You should be at work 
on Thursday afternoon. Thursday afternoon, yeah, you should be 
at work or loving your wife and kids. But Sunday, come to church 
on Sunday. That's, it's not a magic key, 
it's the means of grace. Yeah, and it's not, you know, 
it's always sad to hear of the people who do two things. One, 
they give up church because of sports. Yeah. So the soccer league 
is playing on Sunday morning, and I want my kids to be in soccer 
or little league baseball. So pastor for the next two months, 
we're not going to be in church. Or the other thing is they leave 
the church because another church has a flashier youth program. Oh, we want this for our kids. 
We want them to be able to have fun. We want them to learn about the 
Bible in a context that's fun. Well, seldom are those fun churches 
really doing any good to the souls of the children. It's the 
churches that are faithful in a form of worship that is regulated 
by Scripture, where there is faithful preaching of the Word. 
It may seem outwardly boring. I had this woman came up to me 
at a conference once. Now, I'm not going to tell the 
whole story, because if certain people listen to this, they'll 
figure it out. But she was telling me how someone told her, don't 
go to a Reformed church. Their worship is boring. OK. Maybe it is boring because we 
sing Psalms and we sing hymns, we read the Bible, we pray, and 
we have sermons. And the sermons are 45 minutes 
or an hour long. It's not flashy. There aren't 
special musical groups. All of those things are not happening. 
That may outwardly seem boring. Of course, my question is, what 
pleases God? Yeah, acceptable. And who's it 
acceptable to? Right, who's it acceptable to? 
Not us. It's not to satisfy my desires. So, parents, bring your 
children to worship and live a life of faith before them and 
trust that God will use the means that he has appointed. And I 
think when that happens, preachers, pastors are cognizant of that 
and they want to connect with the children and show them scripture 
and texts and emphasize the gospel and the things that they need 
to hear. It's a wonderful, wonderful dynamic both ways. Yeah, I love 
to, you know, I visit a lot of churches. And it's always great 
to see the six-year-olds run up to the pastor for the weekly 
hug. I know then that that man has 
reached that family, and that little child loves her pastor, 
even though she doesn't understand much because she's only six years 
old. There's a foundation. And then she hands the painting, 
the picture of the sheep, of you preaching. Yeah, that's cool. Those are cool. That's one thing 
I look for when I go preach elsewhere. And I don't tell the pastor if 
he's there until afterwards. I watch and see what the older 
saints, especially the older women in the church and the kids 
do with the preaching pastor, the main preacher. And I was 
at a larger church a couple of years ago. And I didn't tell 
the brother, you guys know him, what I was doing. I told him 
afterwards, I said, you passed the test. And even in a larger 
church, they had like 400 or 500 people there. Same thing, 
he knew the names of all the seasoned saints, and then all 
the kids, and they came up and gave him a big old hug, and I 
thought, that's a good sign. Yeah, it's a very good sign, 
yeah. So, you know, it's really simple. Yeah. It's not complicated. 
Yeah, yeah. And we cannot promise anything 
to anybody, but Use the means of grace. Faithfully use the 
means of grace in all areas. Yeah. Good. Well, I think we'll 
probably stop there. I don't want to launch a new 
one. Thank you both very much for being here. That's fine to 
me. Yeah, me too. Yeah, it's been a nice discussion. 
And just a reminder, we have these already. I think there's 
eight of them that Wim has edited. They're available on all of our 
social media platforms. I figured I should say that because 
it sounds pretty hip. You're a hip guy. I don't know that anybody would 
describe me that way, but hip is typically not the adjective. 
But he's done really good work, and there's just an impetus to 
get this good theology, good Bible teaching. out for people 
that have questions, and perhaps they can share it with others 
as well. So, thank you very much. Look forward to the conference. 
As far as the conference is concerned, we have the Friday sessions, 
the Saturday sessions. Dr. Renahan will be speaking 
in Surrey on the morning service. Dr. Barcellos on the Lord's Day, 
yes. And then you'll be back in the 
evening to speak for us. And then I take you to the airport 
on Monday. It's been a whirlwind tour. We had a nice time in Boston. Yeah, it was good. Good to be 
with you guys there. Flew from the East Coast to the 
West Coast. Yeah. We went from the West Coast to 
the East Coast to the West Coast. Well, you guys are special. Yeah. Yeah. Very special. We know.