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Okay, let's move in a different 
direction. Next question, should Christians 
engage in politics? Yeah, I think they should. Well, 
I mean, if they want to. There's no law in scripture that 
says that a Christian must engage in politics, but there's no word 
in scripture that says that a Christian can't engage in politics either. And I think that as Christians, 
we wear several hats, right? I'm a father, I'm a grandfather, 
I'm a husband, I'm a pastor, and I'm also a citizen of this 
body politic. As a citizen of this body politic, 
I have the rights guaranteed to me in the Charter of Rights 
and Freedoms. to protest, to write letters to my members of 
parliament, to my MLAs, I'm free to participate in that activity. 
There's nothing in scripture that would forbid me or prohibit 
me from doing that, but it's not a must. If somebody in our 
church doesn't write letters to their MLA, they're not gonna 
come under any ecclesiastical sanction. And I think too, the 
engagement in politics, I'm sure you've probably been aware, I've 
been accused of stepping over the boundary and preaching things 
that were very political. And yeah, my argument is it's 
hard not to comment on Sodom when you're standing in Sodom. 
But I do, at least in my own head, I have a framework by which 
I try to address this so that I don't fall prey in one side 
or the other. If I came to the church or pulpit 
with a MAGA hat on, and, you know, a rah-rah session for the 
Republican Party in America or the Conservative Party in Canada, 
I think that's, you know, an engagement in politics that's 
not altogether healthy. But to show that Scripture speaks 
to the body politic, to show that the Scriptures do have things 
to say for persons who live in or near Sodom, I think that's 
helpful. And I think that it does hopefully 
promote or produce in the hearts of God's people a recognition 
that yeah, the Scriptures speak to our Lord's Day conduct, They 
speak to our Monday through Saturday conduct as well. And again, if 
you're not inclined to engage in politics, that's fine. But if you are, I don't think 
you should be necessarily condemned. You know, our confession, at 
least the first London confession, was written specifically to distance, 
the particular Baptist wanted to distance themselves from the 
Anabaptists. And of course, Anabaptists It's 
hard to nail that down. It wasn't a monolithic sort of 
a thing, but one thing that tended to be symptomatic of anabaptism 
was pacifism and no engagement in politics. So in our confession, 
the second London, probably the first London too, I'm gonna... 
assume here, has a good chapter on the civil magistrate and it 
says that, you know, Christians can serve in that particular 
capacity. So, yeah, it is lawful for Christians 
to accept and execute the office of a magistrate when called thereunto 
in the management whereof, as they ought especially to maintain 
justice and peace, according to the wholesome laws of each 
kingdom and commonwealth. So, for that end, they may lawfully 
now, under the New Testament, wage war upon just and necessary 
occasions." So, there's a lot of politics right there. There's 
a lot of engagement in politics. And I would just say lastly, 
it's not the church as church that that is to govern the nations. It is the civil government ordained 
by Christ under Christ over men that's supposed to maintain that 
justice and order and those sorts of things. So, the church has 
never been given the sword to go out and clean up the streets 
of Chilliwack. The church preaches the gospel, 
she has the keys to the kingdom of Jesus Christ, but she doesn't 
have the civil, you know, the sword that the civil state wields 
in the coercive power of the state to enforce justice and 
maintain those sorts of things. So, there is an overlap. State 
and church function both under Christ, but the state isn't the 
church and the church isn't the state. And I think we need to 
keep those things clearly separated, not separated. You know, they 
use that separation of church and state today means that the 
church can't say abortion's sin or abortion's wrong. That's not 
what I mean by separation of church and state. I mean that 
the state does state functions, church does church functions, 
and we are not to take the sword from them and they're not to 
take the gospel from us or the supper and start to engage in 
those activities. I mean, the COVID thing that 
we went through over the last couple of years, I think was 
a perfect illustration of overreach on the part of the civil state, 
wherein she thought she had the right to suspend religious worship. That's not a right given to the 
civil state. So, you know, in that instance, 
we must obey God rather than men. And even as we consider 
where politics comes from, the word polis is city. How do we 
live and function in society? And the Bible does speak to that. 
I know a pastor's main task is to preach Christ and Him crucified. 
But if we preach the whole counsel of God, we pretty quickly, when 
we get to Genesis 4, have to deal with some city building 
and then you know, there is Romans 13, and then there is the whole 
book of Deuteronomy, which deals with some justice and ethics. 
But especially I think the covenant charter is found in Genesis 9, 
where we have that Noahic covenant that is a covenant that God made 
with all of creation, really for three purposes for mankind, 
namely for family, for enterprise, and for justice. And so it really 
does kind of give us the principles by which a good functioning society, 
just society should be built upon. Is the government punishing 
the guilty and protecting the innocent? Are families being 
protected by the government punishing the guilty and protecting the 
innocent? Are they allowing for enterprise? And so those are 
the principles at least that I use when it comes to how I 
think through what I look for and someone I'm voting for. And 
if I'm just gonna be honest with you, they don't have to be Christian 
in my mind. And I've used the illustration when I was preaching 
through Genesis. You get to Genesis 19, Lot's 
at the gate, and Lot doesn't always make the best decisions, 
but we would no doubt recognize that he is a believer. But you 
get to Abimelech in Genesis chapter 20, he does recognize that one 
should not have another man's wife. So, you know, I joked with 
the people, I would vote for Abimelech more than I would Lot. But the point I'm trying to make 
is that, you know, the Bible does speak to how we function 
as individual Christians in society and how we should function as 
individual Christians. And there's really nothing distinctly 
Christian about that. It's how God made the world and 
how we should operate in this world. Yeah, and I would add 
with preaching the gospel, that's the primary emphasis for the 
church, but we do preach the law as well. So if I preach a 
sermon against abortion, I think the typical response is, well, 
that's political. No, it's ethics. It's God's law. You are not supposed 
to murder people. So the same Bible that tells 
us, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, tells us you shall not 
murder. And so there is a place where 
as ministers of the gospel, we preach the law, understanding 
the threefold use of the law. One is civil. It restrains the 
lawlessness and wickedness of man. Second is pedagogical. It is to show sinners their need 
for Jesus. And then thirdly, normative. 
The people of God need to think how the law functions and how 
it's supposed to function in their lives as the people of 
God. So, you know, I just disagree if somebody says, oh, that's 
preaching politics. If you preach, you know, the 
civil state should not steal. No, that's not politics, that's 
the Ten Commandments. So, you know, I think our theology 
in the Reformed world has a place for proclamation of the law and, 
you know, the reasons we would do that. So, it's not, you know, 
I know those are political issues, but abortion isn't a political 
issue. It's the unlawful taking of an 
innocent life and the Bible speaks to that very clearly. Yeah, obviously 
we pray for the end of abortion and we want godly prime ministers 
and leaders. And just when it comes to engagement, 
I'm thinking of like nominating good candidates in the parties, 
whichever party it is locally, right? And so the people who 
do those efforts, that's a good thing. God works through the 
means and doing the door knocking and getting the word out, this 
candidate is there, let's vote for him and get him on the docket 
and get him voted in and up the ranks, right? Sure. Yeah, I mean, 
engagement is not condemned. If you're engaging to the point 
where you're neglecting other known duties, then you got problems. But yeah, if you're able to manage 
and you're able to function and you're able to do that without 
any compromise, yeah, there's nothing wrong with it. Can I 
just clarify too what I said about, you know, I would vote 
for someone who's perhaps not a Christian and yeah, I would 
based upon whether or not they would be just or not with their 
policies and what they would do. But I think as you said, 
Wim, I think, you know, should Christians engage in politics? 
I do think we do need some solid level-headed Christians in politics 
who understand that they're not bringing in the kingdom by the 
politics they're engaging in, but they're trying to protect 
and preserve justice in the land. in this land in which we live. 
So yeah, I think it'd be wonderful. I would love to vote for Christians, 
if they can demonstrate that they'll do their job and protect 
the city well.