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So, next question is, why is 
historical confessional Christianity important? So, this is from Ethan 
and Joey. How should I communicate the 
importance of historical confessional Christianity to non-denominational 
friends or family who have a superficial, like a shallow understanding 
of the faith, no creed but Christ? Well, I would say to Ethan and 
Joey, I would say that the Bible tells us that the church is very 
important. So, we read in Ephesians 4 that 
Jesus Christ ascended on high, he led captivity captive, and 
he gave gifts to men. So, the gifts that he gives to 
men in that particular chapter are other men, and those men 
function as apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers. 
As well, in Matthew 28, Jesus says, So the ascended Christ, 
at the right hand of the Father, is present with His church. One 
of the things that He does is He furnishes His church with 
gifts. and those gifts are men, and 
those men are valuable contributors in terms of teaching and preaching. 
And so, the argument is that we do theology in concert with 
or connected to the church. We don't just take our Bibles 
out into the wilderness. We can do that, but we don't 
go out into the wilderness to find something that nobody's 
ever found before. I was like Charles Hodge at the 
founding of Princeton University, which they didn't keep to this. 
He says, we'll not have original thoughts here. We're not doing 
new things here. And I think that's a good posture. 
Not to say that there aren't new discoveries in biblical research. There's not new discoveries. 
This far in, if you're discovering things that Turretin, Van Maastricht, 
Calvin, Owen, Augustine, Aquinas, Spurgeon, if you're finding things 
those guys didn't, you should be very careful, okay, before 
writing your new book. So, with the creeds and the confessions, 
we see that the creedal response in the early part of Christianity 
was to the various challenges about God's triunity, about the 
person of our Lord Jesus Christ. So, you've got the church taking 
seriously the challenges that were coming from without and 
trying to correct and teach and instruct those challenges within. 
And so, they fashioned the Nicene Creed to deal with the issue 
of the triune God. Well, on the heels of that, there 
were other challenges. If the Son is God, then how do 
we understand the Son who is God as man? And so, you've got 
Chalcedon that comes along and provides a good definition and 
an articulation of biblical truth. So, we would be fools I would 
suggest we are foolish men in the 21st century if we don't 
look back to what our forefathers contributed, those gifts given 
by the risen Christ to the church for their equipping, for their 
maturation, for their instruction, for their growth. Why would we 
not receive those gifts? and they've come to us in the 
forms of creeds and confessions. So, for us, the Second London 
Confession, one of the things that we really appreciate is 
that it incorporates those earlier creedal statements. So, in the 
17th century, when the Reform come to write their documents, 
they don't say, okay, we're going to just obliterate the patristics, 
that means the church fathers, and the medieval theologians. 
We're going to just start afresh. That's not what they do. they 
go back to the patristics, they go to the medievals, and they 
take those best insights and they incorporate them into those 
17th century confessions. So, what we have in those documents 
is the best the best that the church has produced in terms 
of articulating Christian doctrine. For my part, I got here 26 years 
ago. I held the Second London Confession 
then. I hold it a lot more firmly now. I have tried and proven its usefulness 
It describes or defines for us Christian doctrine. It as well 
helps us to distinguish who is and who isn't member material 
in the life of the church. I mean, I'm not saying that if 
you don't believe our distinctives, you can't be saved. Not the argument. But if you don't believe these 
distinctives, there's a hundred other churches where they speak 
to your distinctives. So, this helps us with church 
membership. It helps us with church officers. Mike and I have 
had the privilege of recently sitting on an ordination board 
for Ryan Maljars. He's our pastor of a church plant 
in Armstrong. And we had our Bibles and we 
had our confessions. So, the confession of faith is very helpful 
to define and describe Christian doctrine. It helps, and when 
I say the church may not want you with your distinctives, I'm 
not, that goes both ways. If I'm an Arminian charismatic, 
I want to know that the church I'm going to is not that, so 
that I don't go there. To me, a lack of a confession 
of faith is a very unfair way to do church, right? A brief, 
vague statement of faith produces brief, vague thinking about Christian 
doctrine. So, the more doctrines, the better, 
the healthier, the more solid the church is. So, I think the 
arguments for confessions and creeds within the context of 
the church, just to summarize, it keeps us connected to the 
church. It respects and appreciates the role of the ascended Christ 
in having given those gifts to the church, and they did a good 
job. I don't ever come out, you know, 
wake up in the morning, go out to my garage and say, you know, 
I should try to reinvent the wheel. I've got four of them 
on my car. They work beautifully. I don't 
have to reinvent them. Why do I want to reinvent Christianity 
in the 21st century when men that were much brighter than 
me, much more skilled than I did these things already? And we 
have, I think we ought to have a posture of gratitude and thankfulness 
for the great work that the Church has produced that is codified 
in the creeds and confessions. I was listening to Dr. J.V. Fesco 
on, I think it was The Need for Creed, just a lecture, and he 
uses the example of a woodworker with an apprentice. And it's 
like the apprentice trying to build a chair without asking 
the master and without using instructions. And I think that 
is a good example to describe someone who tries to read the 
Bible without help from anybody else. I think we need to be like 
the Ethiopian eunuch. when he says, how can I understand 
unless someone explains it to me? So I think we have to have 
that humility, and we have to just come to the realization 
that when we're first converted, we're children in Christian years, 
we're babies, and we need that milk, we need someone else to 
teach us and to help us. And I think that's what church 
history does, and also the creeds and confessions help us with 
as well. And I think another helpful, illustration of the 
importance of the creeds and confessions. There's this picture 
I've seen online where the Bible's open and there's these two lines 
that go kind of side by side with the Bible. So, we recognize 
the creeds aren't the Bible. We recognize the flow of Scripture, 
but we also have to deal with the theological claims of Scripture 
as well, which is what the creeds and confessions help us with. 
And so if we don't have those bumpers, if you go bowling and 
you can't bowl very well, you have the bumpers there. And if 
you don't have the bumpers, you're going to go in the gutter. And 
I think that aptly illustrates the importance of confessions. 
I think they keep us within the ballpark and within the bounds 
of orthodoxy. Otherwise, we are going to go 
into the gutter and our theology is going to go down the gutter 
as well. And so we want to make sure we're in line with what 
other people have said. and what scripture says as well and the 
claims that are found in it. So, the confessions help us and 
keep us orthodox. Yes. Is there a reason why people 
are pushing back or just they don't, they're scared to get 
into the creeds and confessions? Is there like fears or PTSD or 
something? I think at times it's reactionary. You know, for instance, 
we might be, I don't think accused is probably the best word, but 
I can't think of another. We're accused of worshipping 
the creed or the, you know, the confession is on par with the 
Bible. No matter how many times we say 
that's not the case, it nevertheless arises. So, it might be somewhat 
reactionary, you know, oh, the Reformed faith, they're so, you 
know, cerebral, all they ever do is, you know, engage in orthodoxy, 
and they're just dry and dusty, and it's because of those creeds 
or confessions. So, there might be some of that. 
There might just be as well something that Samuel Miller had recognized 
when he discusses creeds and confessions. He says, men seldom 
have a problem with creeds and confessions until the creeds 
and confessions have a problem with them. So, you know, if we 
want to retool, reinvent wheels and the creed stands in our way, 
or the confession stands in our way, well, I think there's going 
to be a prejudice toward a creedal or confessional sort of a Christianity. So, you know, on the one hand, 
it might be reactionary. You guys put too much stock in 
it. On the other hand, it might be, you know what, we don't want 
that kind of stuff anymore. you know, woke 21st century. 
We don't want to be sort of stifled by these 17th century approaches 
to Christianity. And then, you know, all things 
being equal, judgment of charity, you know, it sounds pious, it 
sounds good to say, well, all we need is the Bible, you know, 
no creed but the Bible. That's been said by the worst 
heretics that have ever walked the face of the earth. The Bible 
tells us of the utility of men that Christ has given to the 
church to function as teachers. So, if we with one wave of the 
hand get rid of them, we as well get rid of our commitment to 
the Bible that tells us that Christ gave gifts to the church. So, you know, we don't agree 
with everybody that was a patristic or early church father. We don't 
agree with everything or in the medieval period or at the time 
of the Reformation. But where they got wood on the 
ball, We thank God for that, and we praise God that we have 
this rich heritage of doctrinal truth codified for us in a handy 
space to help us with categories and ways to approach Scripture. So, the no creed but the Bible, 
it sounds pious, it sounds noble. Today, it's being heralded that 
Biblicism is the way to go. If the Bible demanded that, but 
the Bible doesn't. The Bible says, you know, we 
have gifts, and you should listen to those gifts, and it reflects 
the purpose of Christ for the church. And one thing I've heard 
from Dr. Renahan and from others as well, 
the irony is no creed, but the Bible is itself a creed. It's 
what people use as they come to the scriptures. It's whether 
or not it's a good creed or a helpful thing to be believed as we come 
and consider the scriptures. So I think that's important to 
remember as well. A non-denominational church is 
just another denomination. And they're all as cradle. No 
creed but the Bible is dogmatism. And, you know, I've heard it 
too that, well, you guys that hold to these confessions are 
proud. Well, I grant I'm proud, but it has nothing to do with 
my hold on the confessions. I, you know, I think that, you 
know, all of us struggle with pride. We've all got this issue 
or problem, but could it be that we actually think that this confession 
does articulate the truths of Scripture? Is that a possibility? That we really believe that what 
is taught therein is the teaching of Holy Scripture in a helpful 
summary statement? You know, the judgment of charity 
works both ways. If I need to be, you know, judging 
with charity my brethren who oppose or disagree, I'd like 
a bit of that too. I don't look at it as the authoritative, 
you know, word of God. I don't look at it as infallible. 
But I look at it as a wonderful, helpful summary statement concerning 
the truths most surely believed among us. And so, you know, that 
said, why is that proud? Or, you know, you guys have a 
paper Pope. You know, we subscribe to a paper 
pope. I'd rather have that paper pope 
than, you know, the myriad of popes that serve in Protestantism 
today. Our problem isn't just the Pope 
of Rome, but every church or many churches that aren't tethered 
scripturally and tethered to the creeds and confessions of 
the church, they're independent to a place where I don't think 
it's healthy. I mean, the guy that's swinging 
his Bible yelling at everybody that it's no creed but the Bible, 
that's the guy I'm most concerned about versus the guy that says 
Christ gave us a bunch of gifts, and we happen to have them here 
in the Nicene and Chalcedonian creeds, and we have it here in 
the Second London Confession. Let's use these things to help 
us better understand Scripture. give me that guy versus the, 
you know, the one that's declaiming against what the Bible says in 
terms of his no creed but the Bible dogmatism. And I think 
there is a biblical argument for creeds in the sense that 
several or many passages found in the New Testament are creedal. 
They seem to be implied that they're creedal. And one thing 
it's important to highlight too, is a scripture is being written 
between the time of Christ's death. And when the books are 
written, there is a theology that is handed down and passed 
down. There is a theology, a sound doctrine that is maintained even 
when the people didn't have the New Testament, certainly they 
had the Old Testament, but they had that doctrine. that guided 
them and kept them. They had the apostles to help 
guide and keep them. And then thankfully, the Lord 
in his providence, we have the scriptures as they've been inscripturated 
and written, but that's founded upon theology. Yeah, that Jude 
3 emphasis, contend earnestly for the faith, not your faith, 
your subjective appropriation of the benefits of Christ, but 
contend earnestly for the faith, the objective content of Christianity. You contend for that earnestly. Why? Because a bunch of guys 
have come into the context of the local church, and they're 
wrong. They've departed from the faith. So, what's the response? You 
take the faith, and you defend it, and you root these guys out. 
So, yeah, to me it just seems, It's just so obvious. Like, why 
wouldn't we use what men before us have done that is so profitable 
and helpful? Why put ourselves in a deficit 
position? Why put ourselves in the position 
where, you know, we got to write a brand new confession of faith? 
Are you kidding me? I mean, we can't respond to the 
most basic things today, collectively. let alone hammer out the triunity 
of God and the Christology that upholds the hypostatic union. 
So, we should be thankful that Christ gave us those gifts instead 
of, you know, looking with, you know, sort of a derogatory approach 
at it. Pete Yeah. I think it gives a lot there 
to Ethan and Joey around, talking to their neighbor about that. 
I've studied the Confession. It's corrected my understanding 
on different things, on Scripture, where I was wrong, where I had 
bad teaching in the past. It's been helpful to me. Many men 
have worked on this. It's not just a couple dozen, 
it's hundreds and hundreds of people who have worked on this. 
That's right.