All right, well, welcome back to another recording of the Ask Free Grace Baptist podcast, where we answer various questions. This is our eighth time we're recording. Batch eight, as I call it. And so actually, we'll be at question 73.

We've already done 72 that we've published. So you can find those all on the website. There's some sermon audio on YouTube. The best place to go is to freegrace.

ca forward slash ask, A-S-K, and you can search there and filter and see transcripts, links to YouTube, all of that. It's very easy to share and find and read them. Yeah, I really enjoy doing this. I learn a lot as well.

So yeah, I'm here with my pastors Cameron Porter and Jim Butler. So welcome back. Thank you. Thank you for doing this.

Good to be here. Good to be here. All right, so we'll go into our first question, which is submitted by someone. How to go about planting a church?

So, yeah, what does Scripture teach about planting a new church? What are practical first steps for someone who has that on their heart to go and plant, let's say, a confessional Reformed Baptist church? Often an area where there isn't one, right? If there was one, they would join, but there isn't one.

And what support, resources, partnerships can they take advantage of? Sure. You want me to take a kick at this, Ken? Okay, well, the general overarching principle is the Great Commission.

Go, therefore, make disciples of all the nations, baptize those disciples that are made, and then teach those disciples all things that the Lord has commanded. So, you've got the doctrine, the gospel preached, sinners saved, and then taught all things that the Lord had commanded. So, the teaching takes place in the context of a local church. So, the broadest application of church planting would be the Great Commission.

And then specifically with reference to planting a church, I think it's most important that you have people. The church isn't a building. Churches use buildings, and that's perfectly acceptable, but the church isn't a building. The church is the people of God.

So, in order to plant a church, you've got to have the people of God, and ideally, you should have somebody that would hopefully be able to teach and preach and shepherd those people. It's not absolutely essential. I think that elders are essential for the well-being of a church, but not necessarily the being of a church. So, there can be feasibly a time where you have a group of people gathering together that don't have a specific shepherd at that point.

But ideally, people, a pastor or somebody en route to pastoral ministry to serve that group of people. And I would say as well, you know, bound together by a common confession. Of course, we are Reformed Baptists, which means that we subscribe to the Second London Confession. of 1677, so any churches that we would help plant, we would make sure or want to make sure that they are confessional.

That is not to say that every other expression of a church is bad or evil or a synagogue of Satan. So, not it at all, but we believe in the division of labor. We believe that, you know, we have a common confession and we have a vested interest in seeing churches planted that represent that confession of faith. So, not a diss against any other groups.

May they be blessed of the Lord in their church planting efforts, but for us, it's usually going to rally around the confession that we hold to. And then, so if we were assisting, we would assist by these sorts of observations, these sorts of assistances, perhaps filling their pulpit from time to time, addressing some of the particular needs that they have. There's a financial component, the way that we have planted churches in the past, historically, is that we pony up a bit of the dough, we expect the church that's being planted to pony up some of that dough, and then if there's other needs or other churches that want to cooperate, they can as well. And so that's basically it that I can think of.

I'm not sure if that gets at the heart of the question. Any other thoughts there? I'm comfortable with Jim's answer. It's a plant, so it's an analogy of a seed, right?

It's got to grow and mature. For a child, it's got to grow up, but eventually, because a healthy church would be Having the elder is a plurality, and then planting more churches, and they plant more churches. It's got to continue and spread, right? That's right.

It's perpetual, and it's based on the general principle of making disciples, gather those disciples together, teach those disciples everything that Christ commanded. Those disciples, in turn, will then seek to go out and make disciples, and that's how the whole process is supposed to work. I think it's important too for the people who are going to be constituting that planted church. Let's say in an example where perhaps there are no officers immediately, to have a proper disposition and outlook that there is no perfect church under heaven.

I think there can be this idealistic capturing that sort of animates the people where they're going to get what they want, what they see as the perfect church. But there is no perfect church, this side of glory. And to manage expectations within that safe rubric of what a church ought to look like and should look like in glorifying God and owning the Savior, and in rallying around the things that are to be most surely believed amongst that gathered assembly, but understanding that there's still sin, we still live in a fallen world, Christians are still marked by remaining corruption, and so I think it's good to have an excitement about the church planting endeavor, but to manage that within the rubric of what the Bible says concerning the fact that on this side of glory, we're still marked by that remaining corruption. Yeah, I think from what I've heard, you guys would have more exposure than I do, of course, but a lot do kind of Fizzle on the vine, or whatever the analogy is, they die before they can get to maturity and really rooted, right?

Just because of division, lack of unity, egos, pride. And an insistence on preferences. The bottom line is that, yeah, there's a tension. You're never going to get everything that you want out of a church, and you shouldn't.

It's not about you, it's about Christ. And so a confessional approach, we've got the general characteristics, we've got specific marks of what a true church is, preaching of the Word, ministration of the sacraments, discipline. Yeah, people may want extras here or extras there, but you've got to be willing to just say, you know what, the Word's being preached here, my soul is being fed, what else could I or should I want? And it's not just in a church plant setting, it's in a church life setting.

Yeah, you gotta focus on the main things. And it'd be nice if we had this, that, or the other, but it's not requisite, it's not necessary. And you are free, if you're so inclined, to go where those things are. Which, as long as you're not the consumer mindset, well, everything's gotta be about me.

that's a dangerous position. But at the same time, if you are needing something that's better for you spiritually, I don't think it's necessarily wrong to leave and look for something else. Yeah, and going back to Jim's comment regarding having a good confession of faith is that which serves foundationally for the life and the well-being of the church. The best of the confessions of faith will have a chapter on the church and on Christian worship, which obviously intimately touches upon the doctrine of the church.

And so having those chapters in a confession of faith, the people who are going to constitute a church plant can have the honest declaration of what they believe a church is to be. And it's helpful that confessions of faith never include those things that are inconsequential to the life and the structure and the constitution of a church. They always capture the simplicity, however, However condensed or however expanded the chapter may be on the doctrine of the church, it always captures those things that are necessary for a church to be church, and excludes those things that people ought not to be busy about for what a church is to be. And I'm just thinking of what, Jim, you've said as many times, the value of mentors.

So, obviously, you worked with Dr. Braselis for many years and others, and you're mentoring other people. So, the importance of that, you always shared, and also just being in association. Don't be alone.

There are so many people that are willing to help and pray and guide, right? Beneficial to be in an association and beneficial for younger men to find older guys that will take an interest and be there for them to advise and encourage and pray for. It's a group effort. We'll leave that one there.

So, there might be a group of people, they might have some leaders, an elder or two, or part-time, but you discovered the confession and they're like, yeah, we want to go in that direction. The people aren't there. So, how to bring people in that direction towards a full subscription, I guess we should define what that means, without losing people. Can that be done and how do you go about that?

Yeah, I think it can be done. It has been done. I mean, when I looked at that question, the first text that I thought of was Paul's closing admonition to Timothy in 2 Timothy 4, preach the word, be ready in season and out of season, convince, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and teaching. So, I think that it's wise if the man of God has a conviction on full subscription to the confession, he needs to be patient.

He can't ram it down the throats of those who he thinks should receive it. You've got to be faithful. You've got to be long-suffering. Teaching the confession is probably one of the best ways to cultivate a confessional mindset.

You know, some people are exposed to the Calvinism in a confession, and then they think that, oh, I'm confessional. No, Calvinism or Reformed theology or doctrines of grace are obviously taught in our confession, but it far transcends that. And so, the people of God need to be taught the entirety of the contents of the document. It should be explained.

It should be demonstrated scripturally. It should be shown. And again, with that mindset of long-suffering and patience and don't try to force it and don't lay down ultimatums. If people don't get this in three months, then I'm going to leave or whatever.

You've got to just be patient. And, you know, hierarchically, I think there are doctrines, you know, if it were me and I was trying to bring a church to a position, a full subscription to the confession, I would certainly capitalize on and take pains to teach chapter 2. I think there's some big problems on theology proper in the church as a whole. So, I would definitely want to go there.

I'd want to go to chapter 8, and I'd want to teach on Christ the Mediator because, again, I perceive some problems when it comes to the person and the work of the Lord Jesus Christ. I would definitely visit initially those chapters that even if persons don't end up full subscriptionists, they're better theologically and hopefully will be more useful in whatever church they end up in. So, yeah, that's kind of how I think I would go. And certainly chapter 7, I mean, I'm going to just start rattling off chapters now.

They're all good, right? Chapter 7, you know, the thing that distinguishes the Second London Confession from much of Calvinistic Baptist theology is our view of covenant theology. And so, it's important that the people of God who are looking into the Second London understand the architecture of covenant, and they need to understand that that's kind of what You know, we hang our hat on when it comes to the way God works in and through His Son to save people from their sins. You know, the things that are specifically distinctive to Reformed Baptists, yeah, it's going to take some time.

Chapter 22 of Religious Worship and the Sabbath Day. Religious worship, you know, the regulative principle of worship, it's a tough pill for a lot of people to swallow. Coming out of churches where there's banjos and and pony shows and whatever, you know, you come into one of our churches and it seems by comparison boring, which I take great objection to. I don't think it's boring at all.

But then the Sabbath day, you know, the Sabbath day and the identification or the perpetuity of the fourth commandment, it's a tough nut for some people to swallow. And so, again, I think patience, faithfulness, and perseverance, and teaching from Scripture these things is the best way to bring people along. What's come to mind is it's got to be integrated through the regular preaching, because you won't get everyone out to a Wednesday night Bible study or a Saturday morning right. It's got to be in the preaching, preaching the text, verse by verse.

Which is great, because our confession doesn't do anything other than summarize biblical truth. So it's not like I can't preach on covenant from the Bible, or I can't preach on Sabbath day from the Bible, or I can't preach on, you know, theology proper Christology from the Bible. Of course, I can. And I think good faithful preachers that have that context or that 1689 mindset Yeah, they not only preach exegetically specific texts, but they do systematic theology as well, connecting it with other texts and other things, dealing with objections to the doctrine, and so on.

So, yeah, I think it can and should be done with patience and with, you know, a desire to promote the glory of God and the good of the people. I honestly think that Christians that adopt one of these confessions, they should be happier and more well-adjusted, and they know their Scriptures more. I think it's a great explanation. I certainly am, so I'm thankful for it.

Okay, next question. How to choose a new church? Which is a short question, but there's some parts to that. You might be in a church already, or maybe you're brand new to Christianity, right?

But generally, I think this would be for people who are in a church and not 100% happy or think it's the place they should be. So it's like, how do you leave it and how do you find another one and transition with respect, I guess, and land up in the right place? Yeah. Go ahead.

Yeah. I think one of the first things to maybe touch on or treat is how to not leave your existing church. You know, I think going back to the question about how to go about planting a church and those things that are inconsequential to church or to Christianity and those sorts of things, Jim talked about the preferences sometimes that people can elevate to the top of the list as far as those things, those reasons for which they are in this case, you know, leaving their church or choosing a new one. I think there are a lot of bad reasons to leave your existing church.

And so those may need to be treated in kind, but that's not necessarily the question. How to choose a new church. If a person has come to the wholesome and the right decision that the church that they're presently at is not their church. It's not a gospel preaching church.

It's a synagogue of Satan. It's a church that has departed from the truth. They're not preaching the gospel. They're not adhering to the doctrine that was once for all delivered to the saints.

They're not properly a Christian church. So from that vantage point, I think choosing a new church is in the first place choosing one that is a Christian church that is faithful to the main things that really are the sum and substance of Christianity. If we look at what a Christian church is to be about, it is to be about the triune God, it is to be about the mediator Jesus Christ, It is to be about the gospel of that Christ, His death, burial, and resurrection for the salvation of sinners. And it's to be about the blessings and the glories of Christian salvation, which is that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

So I think those are some of those top things, the chief and cardinal doctrines of Christianity. Does that church get them right? And not just do they loosely hold them on that hidden page on their website that lists a statement of faith. In visiting churches throughout North America as I'm traveling, one of the things that I'll often do is I'll go to the website for the church and I'll search for their statement of faith.

What do they believe? on more than a handful of occasions, I've seen, okay, this statement of faith is pretty reasonable. They affirm the triunity of God, the deity, the humanity of Christ, the perfection of salvation exclusively in Christ. Certain things that perhaps touch upon our sort of predisposition to Reformed theology, but then you get into the context of worship, and it's like there's just a hat tip to that, but what they're actually doing within the context of church and worship is different and not conducive to that historic confession.

So, yeah, I think faithfulness to the cardinal doctrines of Christianity and the actual practical outcropping or the actual practical display of that adherence to sound doctrine within the context of worship. They are preaching the gospel. They are administering the sacraments as they ought to be administered. And they are engaging in church discipline, the instruction of disciples, the making of disciples.

And perhaps that's a good place to go. Are they faithful to Christ's great commission in Matthew 28, 18-20? Are they under the authority of the exalted and ascended mediator doing what that mediator prior to his ascension commanded that his church is to be about? The preaching of the gospel, the making of disciples, the baptizing of those made, believing disciples, And the instruction in all of those things that Christ had commanded to be taught and that he himself taught.

And so I think if a Christian, again, who has departed a church for good reasons is looking for a church, that is what they ought to be looking for. A Christian church faithful to their calling. Yeah, I would say, you know, before you leave a church or before you find another church, know what a church is. Right?

You know, my church is so boring. Well, okay. What is your concept of church? Church should be different than a date with my wife.

Church should be different than watching, you know, my grandsons play t-ball. Church should be different. Well, what is different about church? As Cam alluded to, the Belgic Confession, the march of the church, the preaching of the word, the administration of the sacraments, and the discipline of the church.

If your church is practicing those things, you may not want to leave, right? That might not be, well, you know, they don't do it the way perhaps I'd like them to. Okay, well, maybe there's a church practicing those things better. But sometimes people leave churches for very poor reasons.

If your church is preaching the truth, And the church is disciplining through ongoing formative discipline with the Word and corrective discipline when people color outside the lines. They're administering the sacraments. Then, bless God, you're in a church. Is it everything that you would possibly desire it to be?

Probably not. But again, if we got exactly what we wanted on this side of heaven, we wouldn't long for heaven. Everybody's got preferences. I've got preferences.

There's things I'd like to change if it was up to Jim and his preference day at our church, but I know it's not my church. I know it's not my project. It's Christ's. We need to obey Christ, and we need to do it in a way that brings glory to Christ.

Sometimes persons leave churches for less than stellar reasons, but then sometimes people stay at churches for less than stellar reasons as well. If your church is not faithfully preaching the truth, if your church subordinates Jesus in theology, if your church teaches justification by faith plus words, it might be time for you to leave that church. So, yeah, there are some hasty departures, But there's also some times where a person should have departed a long time ago because your church is dead, or your church is corrupt, or your church is heretical. So, you know, know fundamentally what is a church, what is the marks of a church, what is a church supposed to be, and I think that helps then shape, guide, and direct you as to whether or not I should stay where I'm at or I should pursue something else.

Yeah, it's all subjective things, because I've seen people get caught up with the subject of family and friends, and I've been there for, my family's been there for a hundred years, whatever, right? And you know, people are different. People are different. And I get that.

And I have to be patient with that as a pastor, because for me, if I had a doctor that was great at his job, but he had no bedside manner, I'd be fine with that. I don't need bedside manner from my doctor. I have a wife for that. I have friends.

I have other relations to fulfill those needs. I want the most steady hand, the most bright mind navigating whatever my malady may be. Conversely, or the same with reference to if I was a member of the church and my pastor preached the Word, that's what I'm there for. Sure, if he wants to have coffee with me and say nice things to me, I'll take it.

But I'm there for the preaching of the Word of God, and that to me is absolutely crucial. Now, I think that others are there for the preaching of the Word and having that coffee with the pastor. And again, I'm not picking on them, but everybody's got to see in their own value system what is imperative, what is most important. And for me, it's, does the guy preach?

And do they, you know, administer the sacraments properly? And do they discipline people when they need discipline? Because if they do those things, then bless God, I'm in a church. So, I think basic definitions are very helpful to help us when it comes time to either stay at or leave a church.

And I think Cam, you know, hits the nail on the head. Somebody can vow or affirm, yeah, we're confessional. But if you go to that church and you never hear anything that is uniquely confessional, And again, confessional means biblical. But if you go to a church that, yeah, we hold the Second London, and they're preaching dispensationalism, or they're preaching progressive covenantalism, and again, I'm not demonizing those positions, but I'm saying you can't say you're confessional if you're not teaching what the confession teaches.

You can't say you affirm chapter 8 in our confession and have some category of a subordinate Jesus when it comes to theology. You cannot say that. Just like you cannot say I hold the Chalcedon and I hold the Nicaea and yet I've got gradation of persons within the Trinity or I've got three separate wills or three distinct consciousnesses. You can't.

it's settled because they have the websites and the statements there is all could be it's like a marketing thing that somebody could have done five ten years ago yeah the guys in the pulpit they're filling they're getting some bright people but they're from other seminaries and they haven't looked at the website they haven't vetted the people coming in their pulpit and i say this too if you're gonna look for a new church Give it a couple of months. I'm sure in your business, you have a bad day. I'm sure in your business, you have a bad day. Pastors can have bad days.

On a Sunday, you wouldn't think it, but they can't. And he may go and shovel, you know, gravel down your throats for a sermon. And if you popped in there that time and said, that church is terrible, or nobody greeted me, You know, maybe it was a one-off. Maybe everybody in the church that day had a bad day.

You really can't know something, I would suggest a couple of months. If you're going to make, you know, and this goes to something that I think is even less appreciated, church and where we go to church is one of the biggest decisions of our lives. You know, who will we marry? How many children are we going to have?

Where are we going to send them to school? All those are big questions, but where am I going to go to church? It takes some reflection. It takes some examination.

It takes some pondering. It takes some, you know, getting to know the pastor, getting to know the ministry, getting to know the brethren. You can't do that on a Sunday morning. I just don't think it's possible, because again, bad day.

Or maybe it was a great day, and otherwise the guy's terrible, you know? So give it some time. These are huge decisions. Where am I going to bring my wife and children in terms of church life?

Is the worship reverent? Is it biblical? Is the preaching sound? Is there gospel emphasis, especially as a father raising children?

One of the best things I can do is let my kids to a good church on the Lord's Day where the gospel is going to be preached regularly and consistently, and the pastor is going to call upon sinners to believe and repent. I want my children in that. I want to bring them up in that. Whether there's programs for them or whether there's nights for them.

Again, I don't care. I care that they're hearing an earnest entreaty on the Lord's Day morning to come to Jesus and be saved. That to me is far more valuable. Okay, so this next question changes gears a bit from where we were.

We're talking about planting churches, transitioning, choosing a church. So what's the difference between faith and assurance? That is a big change. Very big change.

I appreciate that we have separate chapters on that in the Confession, just for a reason, right? I think so, yeah. That's great. And I've been translating this book from Dutch, which gets into the the differences as well, and that's been really helpful.

But yeah, I think it's, a lot of people don't understand this. It's just, it's all the same. And they're like, am I saved or not? Right?

Go ahead. How would you explain that? The difference between faith and assurance. Sure.

Yeah. Well, I think, I think it's important out of the gates to establish that a Christian may have the one without immediately having the other. In other words, every Christian has faith, but not every Christian has assurance. The Bible sets forth both as, well, one, of course, as the inescapable reality for every Christian.

Christians are those who believe. They are those who have faith. They have heard the gospel declared that there is a glorious Christ who has come into this world. sinners to save, that by his death, burial, and resurrection, everyone who believes on him will have everlasting life.

And so our faith rests upon that glorious object, that glorious subject. Those who are Christians are those who have faith. And so the question then comes, okay, are those who are Christians then, or must Christians then necessarily, or else they're not Christians, have assurance? And the Bible says, No, that it's not a prerequisite for our salvation, as if assurance is part and parcel of the faith that one must have in order to have everlasting life.

The Bible does set it forth as something that the Christian is to seek after and to rejoice in. If we look at the Gospel of John, for example, or let's just say the writings of John, We have in his gospel, near the end of his gospel in chapter 20, sort of a summary statement that he gives with regards to what the purpose of his writing was for. It was so that those who read the gospel or who hear it preached might believe that Jesus is the Christ and that they have life in his name. And then when we get to his epistles, we see, for example, in 1 John, in chapter 5, he writes there that he's writing those things to those who believe in the Son of God, that they might know that they have everlasting life in the Son.

So, John really treats both subjects. He treats the believing on Jesus and he treats that assurance that we may have in our belief on the Lord Jesus Christ. And so, I think getting back to the marrow of the question or the matter and the simplicity of the question, the difference between faith. and assurance.

Faith is believing on the Lord Jesus Christ, believing in the glorious one who came into this world, sinners to save. Assurance is the grip upon that, the certain reality, the infallible hope that we have in the Lord Jesus Christ that we most surely are those who have that faith and will at the last be found everlastingly with Him. So, I think it's important to distinguish not only between the definitions of faith and assurance, but also with regards to the fact that one is necessary for a Christian and the other is held forth as possible for that Christian who has faith to enjoy. Amen yeah, Jim anything.

No. I think that's good. I think it's important though that that believers do seek assurance. If, you know, somebody may be a believer in Jesus and not have assurance, so what happens?

They're always looking at themselves to see whether or not they're a believer in Jesus. I'm sure the devil loves that. Be sidetracked, be sidelined, sit with yourself and stew. versus look and live, trust that what Scripture says concerning the person and the work of the Lord Jesus Christ is true.

I'm a sinner. I've come by God's grace. I believe what Scripture says. At some level, at some basic foundational level, that's what assurance is.

I believe the Bible is true. Sure, there's fruit. I'm living a godly life. There's fruit.

I'm not living the ungodly life I used to. There's fruit in the sense of, I want to be at church and all that. But if you boil it all down, it is a looking to Christ. It is a believing on Christ and believing that everything the Bible says is true with reference to that looking to Christ.

Right? The chapter on saving faith. We believe everything the Bible teaches, but the principal acts of saving faith have to do with the person and the work of the Lord Jesus Christ. So, you know, assurance, we're probably thinking of some churches that we are familiar with that people come out of or stay in and they struggle constantly with assurance.

Seems to me the answer for those people is just more Jesus. Less them, more Jesus. Less introspection, less fruit-searching, less all of that and more look and live. Trust that what Scripture says concerning the Savior is true.

And then be done with it. Move on in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit and serve Him and glorify Him. And then watch your assurance grow. You've put the onus on you or your performance or things that might measure up in a church context.

No, no. It's always about looking to Christ. Get on with it. Amen.

Yeah. You know, and a lot of the onus is on the believer, of course. There's some onus, of course, on the pastor, on the preacher as well. What are his emphases with regards to faith and assurance?

I like what our confession says. Actually, prior to the chapter on assurance, so in chapter 17 of the Perseverance of the Saints, if we ask the question, What does perseverance depend upon? Our preservation by God. But also, what is the sum and substance, the ground and foundation of our assurance?

We read in paragraph 2 of chapter 17, this perseverance of the saints, and we may also say this infallible assurance of hope, depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father, upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ and union with Him, the oath of God, the abiding of the Spirit, and the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace, from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof." As Jim is saying, if we're pointed to, or if we point ourselves to, Put it this way, if we look inwardly, if we look with one eye upon Christ and one eye inwardly, looking inside for the motions of the Spirit and the evidences and the things, the deeds, the thoughts, and that sort of a thing, and we're not looking principally at Christ as the ground of our preservation and as the ground of our infallible and certain hope of assurance, then we're faltering. And the pastor or the preacher that points us That points us in any direction other than the Triune God, the Mediator Jesus Christ, and the perfection and exclusivity of His salvation as the foundation for our faith and assurance. then something is wrong with the system, something's wrong with the preacher, and something's wrong with the believer who is either being directed elsewhere, or himself or herself is getting carried off by faulty thoughts of where our perseverance and where our assurance most truly and certainly rests, and that's in God and His Christ in the perfection of amazing and victorious grace.

And I don't doubt that persons struggle with assurance. They do. It's the reality. Dispositionally, by nature, some tend that way, melancholic spirits.

But for a church to address a lack of assurance and almost present it as noble, it's good that you struggle. That seems to strip away the simplicity of the gospel. Look and live. Not, it's good that you struggle.

It's proof that probably the seed of faith is there. Well, that is bizarre rationale or bizarre reasoning. Look and live. You knew you lived because you looked by God's grace and you were healed from the bite of that fiery serpent.

It's good that you really don't believe that you were healed from that fiery serpent No, you've been healed now move on and live like you've been healed. I don't know. I just think it's weird Yeah, it's like you're getting through the gate and sitting there But you're not gonna be a healthy productive soldier exactly in the army pick up your gun and move on and combat the enemies Yeah You've got to move past the bottle feeding to get into your steak meal. It seems like they want that perpetual adolescent state.

But yeah, I've been doing this project to analyze hundreds of these sermons and it's about a third of it is this introspection and nothing to really help encourage people to grow in grace and knowledge and be productive. It's bizarre. I also had an email conversation with somebody, I think, who reached out because of these videos. I'm not sure.

His name is Andrew in the US somewhere. I can't remember exactly where he is, but he's like, am I saved? I'm getting these wicked thoughts coming in my mind. I just shared some of them and just vile things, right?

He's like, am I saved? I'm like, no, go back. You're looking to Christ, right? And not your perfection of your thoughts isn't Yeah, I mean, I'd love to say that every Christian, no Christian has ever had a wicked thought.

You know, I mean, that's unfortunately part of life in a fallen world. Even as Christians, we have remaining corruption. The answer still is the same. Look, ye, and live.

And that reality drives us back to Christ, the struggle that the Christian has. It grieves me, and I know it grieves you, Jim, as well. I'll speak for you. For those who come to Romans 7 who are Christian pastors, preachers, theologians, and who treat Paul there as unconverted, I think that can be soul-destroying, or it can certainly cast a burden upon a Christian that ought not to be cast.

Paul there says, the good that I want to do, I find myself not doing the evil that I don't want to do. I find myself doing. And what does this do? This reality, this struggle, it drives him to the Savior.

It drives him to his God. It drives him to his Christ. You know, praise be Christ, who has brought me forth from the deadness of sin to life in him, whereby I can be in a position that I struggle with my thoughts. I struggle with my deeds.

I'm seeking to be one who conducts himself in a manner worthy of that gospel by which I have been saved." So that's never a cause for despair. Not that we relish in sin, that we relish in remaining corruption, but the very existence and presence of the struggle is encouraging because that means there's a struggle. That that Christian, that believer, recognizes his or her sin and recognizes Christ as their Savior, as the one who has saved them, and as the one they have as their exemplar for conduct in this lower world until we get to the beatitude of glory.

Amen. Amen. Yeah, it's bizarre. Yeah, we're just reading Romans 7 with the family together this morning.

I just saw that some Paul was saying, O wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from this body of death. The next part, we don't really remember. I thank God through Jesus Christ. That's the Lord.

Jesus Christ, I know. He's with me. He's going to deliver me, and we've got glory coming. And I'm not going to panic.

I'm going to keep looking. I'm going to seek to mortify by the Spirit the deeds of the flesh. But I'm not going to conclude that because this remaining corruption is in me, I must not be saved. I thank God through our Lord Jesus.

So does God love the unregenerate or non-elect? So can we say Jesus loves you to people we meet on the street or wherever, right? To unbelievers, can we say that? Yeah.

Well, I think out of the gate, we ought to recognize that the gospel has unfortunately been contorted or distorted or dissolved into that sort of a thing where the message is God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life. The warrant on which a sinner is called to come is never God loves you. It's always the command of God and the promise of God that the one who believes on the Lord Jesus Christ will not be ashamed, will be saved. And it rests upon, the warrant to come rests upon the ability and the willingness of the Savior, not on this idea that God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life.

If we look at the Biblical evidence, if we look at what the Bible says with regards to gospel proclamation, take for example the Acts of the Apostles. What do we find to be the content, the constituent pieces of the proclamation of the gospel? It's never God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life. It's always...

immediately and intimately connected to the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. That is the gospel. In fact, in 1 Corinthians 15, the Apostle Paul defines the gospel as such. The gospel that I proclaim to you, in which you stand, that which you believed, That which I chiefly proclaim to you as the central message of Christianity is that Christ died for your sins, the sins of the believer, that he was buried, and that he rose again according to the scriptures.

And so that's the gospel proclamation. And so in the book of Acts, for example, when we see the apostles going about preaching the Christian message, preaching the gospel, it is that. that this man, Jesus Christ, attested to you by miracles, signs, and wonders, which he did in your midst, he is very God and very man. One Christ, the only mediator between God and man, and the gospel message is concerned with his death, burial, and resurrection for the salvation of sinners.

And that is the warrant upon which sinners are called to come. The perfection, the ability, the willingness of the Savior who came into this world, sinners to save, not in this weird sort of platitudinous, universalistic approach that God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life. And it might sound mean, okay, does that mean that we can't tell sinners that God loves them? Well, I think it's important to see what the Bible says with regards to In fact, the Bible does speak about the holy hatred of God with regards to sinners.

We read in the Bible that he hates the workers of iniquity. He's angry with the sinner every day. Is it a responsible act upon the part of the Christian evangelist, upon the part of the Christian preacher to say universalistically and without any sort of qualification that God loves every individual before whom they stand? I don't think it is.

The Bible speaks to the unrivaled and unmitigated holiness of God and His hatred for those who transgress His law. proclamation with God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life, is in fact, and interestingly, the absence of love exercised by that Christian to the one before whom they're speaking, because they're distorting what the Bible says with regards to God, His purposes, the nature of God, the nature of the decrees, the nature of the gospel, and what the gospel itself is. It might be important to observe that theologians have recognized a way to approach the love of God as exercised in a grand expression to all of his creation. Some will parse out divine love in a threefold manner, or some have historically parsed out divine love in the love of benevolence, the fact that God has a will for the goodness of his creation, the love of beneficence, the fact of God actually visiting and conferring goodness upon his creation, and then the love of complacency where we actually see More what we're speaking of with regards to God's particular love for the elect.

The actual reality of God delighting in and pouring out His love upon those who are the object of His love. Gil, for example, would take sort of those first two categories of love and call them more God's general sort of providential goodness. And I think that's a careful way of doing it. God has this general providential goodness and condescension that he shows to his creation.

We know the verses, the sun shines on the evil and the good, the rain falls upon the just and the unjust. There is this general providential goodness that God pours out upon his creation. But then there is that special and particular love that God has for his elect. not for the unregenerate generally concerned as sinners, and not for the reprobate, of course, but with respect specifically to the elect, seen as those who before the foundation of the world God has determined to in time pour out His grace and His mercy upon by virtue of the perfection of the work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

And so getting back to the heart of the matter and the simplicity of the question, the gospel message is not God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life. It is that we have all sinned and we have fallen short of the glory of God, that there is a triune God in high heaven who cannot look upon sin approvingly without having to punish it. And he has dealt with sin either in the death of his son or he deals with sin in the everlasting banishment and punishment of sinners who will be cast out of his sight. And so the blessedness of the gospel message is found in the fact that God has condescended in the person of the Son to secure the salvation of a multitude that no man can number from every tribe, tongue, people, and nation by his death, burial, and resurrection that he rendered perfectly for the salvation of sinners.

And it's those saved sinners that God has that special and peculiar and electing love for, those who are found in the Son, not having their own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is from God through faith in Christ. Good. Amen. That's good.

That's what the Bible says. We're messed up. The world is messed up. But God so loved the world that he sent his Son.

Yeah. And think what the message does when we say to a sinner, indiscriminately, to anyone in front of us, God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life. That puts the glory, the majesty, the beauty on the person who then is loved, not upon the God who condescends and not upon the Christ who is the sum and substance of the gospel. You know, God loves me and has a wonderful plan for my life.

I must be lovable, and I must be worthy of this, you know, divine favor that's exercised towards me. Whereas, you know, that one to whom the proper Christian message is spoken needs to hear of that holy God, of their sin, of the just punishment for sin, and of the blessedness of the Savior who came in to save sinners perfectly. Yeah, I think it's important to use the language the Bible uses. Just stick to it, because it's sufficient.

The other one, I was having a discussion with somebody this week about saying, hey, can you accept Jesus? The Bible doesn't use that word. I think it's okay. Maybe you disagree, but either we reject Him or we accept Him, right?

We receive, I don't know, I just use that as a synonym for receive, but some people have a problem with that language. Accepting. Maybe because it's an abuse of accepting Jesus into your heart. Yeah, I'm sure it's a reaction to bad uses of it.

But it's okay that it's not my favorite, but I'm not going to say you're therefore messed up, right? I mean, we should be able to have differences in a confessional context and still love each other and not lose sleep over it. No, I'll never think that of you. Thank you.

Okay, how powerful are the angels? I put this question in there because we don't talk about it much. I think the angels... We actually underestimate their power and their purpose and how many there are, like there's millions of them.

Before he begins, because I'm definitely deferring, Dr. James Dolezal did a podcast on theology in particular on angels, and I have not listened to it, but I have heard that it was fantastic. My son Joshua has said that it would be a good thing for his mother and I to listen to. So for listeners out there, Dr.

James Dolezal, who we continue to pray for, him having had this accident or having been hit, but apparently it's just gold. Excellent stuff. Yeah, yeah, no, I agree. And IRBS, the seminary that we support as a church, and that's near and dear to us, they recently, over the last couple years or a few years, have introduced an elective course on the doctrine of angels.

That James Dolezal, Dr. James Dolezal himself, had taught previously. It's, I think, a one-credit course that they offer, sort of pulling the doctrine of angels from out of the context of the larger doctrine of creation and treating it separately in an elective course. So, yeah, very good.

Dr. Dulzall is excellent on this topic. So, there's a lot of them, and they're real powerful. Yeah, that's right.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I'd say devils are all over the place, right? Like, I believe there's devils here because they want to pick away the word and confuse and distract and make their minds wander, right?

But are the angels, they're both spirits. So they're everywhere as well, right? Yeah, you know, I mean with the angels, I mean you said it, it's an interesting topic, it's an intriguing topic. The Bible speaks about angels, and so I think the Christians to one degree or another ought to know something about them.

They have been created for the glory of God. Their ultimate created purpose is to attend unto the throne and sing the glories of the triune God. We see that. In places like Isaiah 6, holy, holy, holy is the Lord God of hosts.

The whole earth is filled with His glory. They fly and they remark concerning the unmitigated majesty and glory of God. And the Bible also says that they do have a particular service or ministerial purpose as well. For example, in the book of Hebrews, in verse 14 of chapter 1, we read Paul saying that they are ministering spirits sent to minister to those who will inherit salvation.

So, the Christians ought not to be strangers to angels in the sense of knowing about them, understanding them. You know, I think there can be a prevailing mania that can exist within popular culture with regards to... And an unhealthy obsession with regards to angels. But the Bible does speak about them, and I think we ought to know something about them.

Amen. Yeah. And the same with demonic spirits. I mean, obviously, you don't want to get preoccupied and be caught up in that.

But realize there are nefarious forces. We don't wrestle against flesh and blood. There are principalities. There are powers.

There's a wonderful little book by Carl Truman on Martin Luther, and just how Martin Luther was a medieval monk, and they saw a demon behind every bush, you know, and there was that consciousness that there was a spiritual battle. And I have to admit, for my own part, I don't always think that same way. I mean, I know they're out there, and I know that they're opposers of truth and Christ, probably at our church services versus anywhere else, because they, like you mentioned or referred to, they want to pick that seed like the birds of the air, lest people hear it and believe and be saved. So, to consciously think of that opposition I think is necessary, and I think it is helpful to sort of define the boundaries of what we're doing.

But yeah, I mean, I'm not, you know, and it probably owes to some semblance of, you know, had I come out of a Pentecostal background, some of them have a more defined sort of approach to these things, which I just didn't have. So I'm, you know, trying to learn and not be caught up or consumed with, but mindful of, I think is probably the better way to be. Yeah, and you know, the Bible does speak, or it presents, it narrates, it captures some exciting things with regards to angels in the history of the nation of Israel, for example. In 2 Kings, and it's repeated in the book of Isaiah about a single angel and slayed 185,000 Assyrian soldiers in one night.

You ask the question, are angels powerful? Yes, they are powerful, more powerful than men, definitely. Obviously not as powerful as God, they're created spirits, but being unbounded by the corporality that we have, the material nature that we have, They're powerful. They know more, they can do more, and they are strong beings, the angels themselves, in service to God and in ministering to His people.

We have these created mighty ones, the Bible calls them, that are on our side, you know, without getting into some sort of unhealthy speculation. Actually, there's a quote by Turretin that he uses, and I think it's actually in the context of learning about and studying angels, he said, it's better to be ignorant without crime than to search with peril. Which is good in any head of theology, but on this topic as well, you know, what can we know and what can we not know about angels? But what we do know, what the Bible sets forth is quite an exciting picture.

They're strange, they're mighty, they're servants of God, and they're ministers to those who will inherit salvation. Yeah, just looking at Luke 2, verse... Oh, I missed my reading glasses. I don't know why I forgot them.

But Luke 2, verse 13, with the birth of incarnation or the birth of Jesus, selling there was with the angel. So there was one angel, but with him was a multitude of the heavenly host, praising God and speaking. Yeah, and you know, that goes back to their ultimate purpose. That's the ultimate purpose of the heavenly host is to, you know, to attend the throne and praise God.

And in that, they're very instructive and serve as exemplars for the saints of God, for Christians. You know, the angels are our example with regards to what one of the main thing is with regards to creation, the cosmos, and all it contains. It's the display of the glory of God. It's the triune God showing forth His glory, His might, His divine purposes, His good pleasure in creation, in providence, and in the salvation of sinners.

And I'm just thinking of the book that C.S. Lewis wrote, like Screwtape Letters. That's a great book.

That's a really excellent little book. I haven't read the whole thing, but bits and pieces and quotes. The strategy is very helpful. How would a senior demon communicate to a junior demon?

And it really does provoke thought, and it does show that there are things going on behind the scenes. It's a very helpful book. Yeah. Every day, everywhere, every interaction.

those devils aren't sitting out in the desert somewhere where there's nobody. They're not sitting on the mountaintops. They're around people by the hundreds or whatever, right? But then he was going to write a book apparently on angels.

And then as some people explained it to me, He's like, just couldn't do it. Because you can kind of imagine what devils do, because that's inner heart is sin and rebellion, right? There's some connection there. I don't know what a perfectly holy being can do.

No, you can, right? Right. That's perceptive. Yeah.

But yeah, these devils, so I was going to do this as two questions. We'll just cover it as one, right? Kind of goes together, right? Because devils are fallen angels.

Yeah. Exactly with angels. We got this picture. They've all got wings and stuff right in the devil's we got we imagine they got horns and a pitchfork Yeah, they don't know they don't know they're spirit beings.

They're created spirit beings The Bible does speak to the fact that that angels Instrumentally use material things in order to to manifest themselves and to community, of course under God's sovereignty and providence instruction and guidance, but you know, yeah angels are Spirit beings they they don't have wings You know when we see them depicted with wings and when we see them Or read of them depicted as having wings or of course, you know within Within medieval art and those sorts of things when they they have wings. I think it's just indicative of a their swiftness, their speed, the manner by which they can move from one place to another. They're unconstrained by the materiality and the corporality that humans are. And so, speaking to their power, they they can move quicker than we can.

I know that the medievals and Thomas and others have mused over what angels can and can't do. But yeah, I think we can conclude that because they are unconstrained by the bounds that we are constrained by, those wings depict their fleetness in the service of God and in the ministering to the saints. And they don't get sore lower backs. Kind of connected is Al Martin has some stuff for ministers and burnout and says, you're not disembodied spirits.

You're not angels. You need rest. You need good food. You need exercise.

You know, there's a distinction between a created spirit being versus created spirit body beings. We're not angels and they're not us. So yeah, they're swift because they don't, you know, hurt their knees. That's right.

Yeah. There are some differences and we need to appreciate that. I mean, they don't need eight hours of sleep or seven hours of sleep. They don't, you know, we cannot do the work of an angel.

And at times it's intrigued me. I mean, it seems smart to me to use angels to preach the gospel. They never get it wrong. They're smarter.

They got more energy. But God in his infinite wisdom took earthenware vessels and put that gospel treasure in them to communicate that truth to others. So it's his purpose and plan. That's right.

Yeah. And I think the caricature of the devil with the horns and the pitchfork, as I understand it, was medieval sort of picking at the devil. It was to, you know, he's a being that's proud and arrogant. So it's a caricature and, you know, putting, making him look foolish, really.

Whereas, you know, I don't think for a moment that he's got a pitchfork and horns and a cape, but that's the modern conception. I think it is owing to that, you know, let's depict him this way as a way to make fun of him and pick at him. But I think they show up in people, or show up in pulpits even, and they look polished and charismatic and friendly and everything, but it's bad doctrine and everything that's just... Yeah, it's tough for me, though, to know, I mean, there's just a lot of dumb men out there, or evil men, that may, it may not be a demon, it may just be a wretch.

So, you know, for me, that part's always been hard to parse out, right? Like, what is... you know, this guy's an actual demon or he's demon filled in espousing heresy, or he's just a moron, you know? I mean, not that being a moron is somehow okay, but it's not as bad as being demon filled.

I mean, it would take a lot for me to get to the point where I would say to somebody, I think you're under, you know, demonic possession. Some people have such a strong unbelief that it's beyond just normal. I think there's a Bible text that there's a spirit of unbelief. It's a demon on its own that can kill somebody, right?

There's so much bitterness, anger, offense at the gospel. Yeah, and you know, back to that Luther thing, a demon behind every bush. I've met charismatics for people that came out of that background, and it can be overdone as well. Oh, there's a demon of, you know, rainy days.

You know, it can get bizarre. And, you know, and if you give a sinner the opportunity to blame something, he usually will. Oh, it's this demon. No, no, it's you.

You're a wretch. You need to repent and forsake your sin. And if I ever thought I did meet somebody that was demon possessed, the answer is always the same. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

That's right. Yeah. Have you ever walked into one of these little shops where it's like all the witchcraft stuff and Halloween and all this stuff? You're like, I think there's one in town here.

Like you step one step in, you're like, no, I'm out. It's just so dark and you're like, this is so wicked. Where is it in town? I think it's right by 1881.

1881, yeah, there's one in there. A witchcraft store? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, witchy boo-boo or something like that.

Is it really? Like in the shop area or on the main street? One of the little back alleys, one of those new places. The back alleys, yeah.

And it just smells weird, right? Like incense and whatnot? Yeah, these devils are powerful, but yet James says, resist the devil and he will flee from you. And full stop.

That's it. It's a simple strategy. All right, so I'm not sure who wants to take this one on. Do Christians, Jews, and Muslims all serve the same God?

Like they all say they follow the God of Abraham. Is one God a creator? No, they do not. They do not follow the same God.

In fact, Jesus makes that abundantly clear in the Upper Room Discourse when he's speaking specifically with reference to unbelieving Jews in John 15, 21. Which, by the way, John 15-1, Jesus highlights that He is the true vine. That language of vine was applied to Old Covenant Israel, oftentimes in judgment contexts. But Jesus says in John 15-1, I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser.

So, all the covenant promises of God essentially, well they are, yea and amen in Jesus. And I think that's what he's emphasizing there. But specifically later in John 15 at verse 21, he says, "...but all these things they will do to you for my name's sake, because they do not know Him who sent me."

Okay? So, they're going to persecute you. He's cautioning, beginning in 1518, if the world hates you, you know that it hated me before it hated you. So, he's cautioning his disciples about the opposition of the world, and I would think, and I believe, that the world here specifically is the world that includes unbelieving Jews.

I think that's verified in 16. 16, 2, they will put you out of the synagogues. Yes, the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service, and these things they will do to you because they have not known the Father nor me. So backing up to verse 23 in chapter 15, he who hates me hates my Father also.

So the idea is that if you reject the one sent by the Father, then you hate the Father who sent the Son. So there's no way you can convince me in light of our Lord's words that Jews and Christians serve the same God. Earlier in John's gospel, in John chapter 8, of course, Jesus is combating not Muslims, not Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons, but unbelieving Jews. I'm not trying to sound vicious or offensive or horrible.

I'm just, you asked the simple question, do Christians and Jews worship the same God? No. So, in John 8 verse 37, I know that you are Abraham's descendants according to the flesh, ethnicity, that Abraham's blood at some level runs in their veins, but you seek to kill me because my word has no place in you. I speak what I have seen with my father, and you do what you have seen with your father.

They answered and said to him, Abraham is our father. Jesus said to them, if you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham. But now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this.

You do the deeds of your father. Then they said to him, we were not born of fornication. We have one father, God. Jesus said to them, if God were your father, you would love me.

For I proceeded forth and came from God, nor have I come of myself, but he sent me. Why do you not understand my speech? Because you are not able to listen to my word. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do.

He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. So, our Lord did not say that unbelieving Israel had the same God. There is but one only, the living and true God, who has existed eternally as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

To deny the Trinity is to deny the living and the true God. And you say, well, you know, the Old Testament did teach the doctrine of the Trinity. It's like Warfield's classic example. You know, you've got a darkened chamber that's filled with furniture.

The furniture was always there in the Old Covenant. And at times, lights were on and lights did flicker. Yahweh said to my Lord, sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool. That's definitely a glimpse of the Son of God as, you know, God.

The reference to the Lord Jesus and Isaiah the prophet in chapter 9 verse 6, these are predicates that are made only concerning divinity. So all that furniture was in the chamber, the New Covenant comes and flips the light on beautifully, but the furniture was always there. So Jesus denies that the unbelieving Jews and the Christians have the same God. He just, He does unequivocally.

So, to maintain that we do have the same God is a vicious, vicious thing. I think you're not doing them any favors. You tell them, look, you need to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. You need to come to Jesus for the forgiveness of sins.

We'd say that to Muslims as well. Muslims say that Jesus was a prophet. I mean, they esteem Him in certain ways as a prophet. Well, no, He's the Son of God who definitely fulfills a prophetic ministry, but He tells you, come to Me that you may have everlasting life.

And He is, you know, superior to the Old Testament prophets. He is superior to Moses. He is superior to all. And especially Muhammad, so you really need to come to that one who speaks the voice of God to believe on Him and to be saved.

So this idea, because we're Abrahamic religions, we're all the same God, that cannot be shown in the New Testament. That cannot be demonstrated in Scripture. fortunate thing that attaches itself somehow to monotheistic religions, but if your God isn't the God defined in Scripture as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, you don't have God, you have an idol. Yeah, very super clear.

Okay, so yeah, next question is, why does a literal six-day creation matter? And I guess the sub-question is, is evolution compatible with the gospel? Kind of a corollary or question to that. And so next year, so we're recording this in August 2026.

We'll be opening up registration next couple of months for the conference in April next year. 9th and 10th. 9th and 10th, okay. Gotta add it to my calendar yet, so do that now, save the date.

April 9th and 10th here in Chilliwack, and this will be our fourth year. And so we're on to chapter four of creation. A short chapter, but obviously very important. I call it a chapter.

So why is it important and not a secondary, tertiary topic? I think the first reason that it's important is because of the trustworthiness of divine revelation. God has clearly revealed that the cosmos, the world, and all things therein, all things visible and invisible were created in the space of six literal days, and all very good. And so if we consign the creation account to some sort of literary genre that isn't really speaking properly as a narrative of the creation week, or if we do anything other than affirm the simplicity of God's condescension in revealing the creation week, then we cast aside the trustworthiness of divine revelation.

God said it, God spoke, God provides the inspired account of the creation week, and there we have it. And I think as well, The doctrine of a literal six-day creation matters for the purpose of upholding the purpose of the cosmos and all things. What is the reason for the creation of all things? It's in order to show forth the glory of the triune God in the salvation of sinners by Jesus Christ.

When we look at creation, you know, well, let's just look at it this way. If we were to say what, you know, the naturalistic humanists say, or actually, let's say what some so-called Christians, professing Christians say with regards to the billions of years approach that God used evolution for His purposes in this lower world. Well, it casts aside or it does damage to what we could say is the Christo-redemptive purpose to creation and providence. There is a Christ and redemption purpose to creation.

If we look at the order of decrees, really however you might fall out with regards to the order of the decrees, God, before the foundation of the world, determined according to his sovereign will and good pleasure to perfectly save a multitude of sinners from every tribe, tongue, people, and nation by the doing, dying, and rising again of the Son of God incarnated. And in order to bring about those particular purposes, he creates, well first he decrees the creation of the amphitheater of redemption, where he will bring about those holy and glorious ends. And so the creation account doesn't necessarily serve an end on its own, As glorious as it is, as true as it is, as true to the divine purpose that it is, it serves that crystal redemptive purpose of saving a multitude by the perfection of the work of Christ. yeah, a literal six-day creation matters because of the trustworthiness of divine revelation and because of the purpose that the cosmos and its governing providence serves, which is the end of the salvation of sinners unto the glory of God.

And it seems to me to be a cause for or a reason to praise. You know, when you read the Psalms, you'll see oftentimes the psalmist grounding praise to God in God's work of creation. Revelation, chapter 4, you are worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they exist and were created. You know, it's to strip away another reason, a blessed reason to praise God when we redefine creation or when we, you know, fit it into some sort of a naturalistic or humanistic or scientific way.

You know, if man can get rid of God as Creator, they get rid of Him as Provider and Sustainer and Governor, then they ultimately get rid of Him as Judge. Get Him out from the beginning, and you don't have to worry about Him in the middle and the end. I think there's a purpose, not in, you know, foolhardy or muddle-headed Christianity that does accept some sort of evolution at a macro level. I'm not talking about that, but a humanistic rejection of God creating.

It's driven by getting God out. If I get rid of Him, as I said at the beginning, I don't have to worry about Him in the middle, and I certainly am not going to meet Him at the end. Whereas if I believe for a moment that God actually did create the world, then probably the Bible's right. I'm going to have to meet him again someday in the future.

You know, pagan's like kind of a cyclical version of history. where the Bible presents a linear. You've got a beginning, you've got a middle, and you've got an end. You've got a telos, and you're going to stand before that God, and you're going to give an account of deeds done in the body, whether good or ill.

So, yeah, if I'm a humanist that hates God and doesn't want to deal with God at the end, the best way is to get rid of Him at the beginning. And can Christians be wrong and still be Christians? I would say yes. I just think if Spurgeon held to...

Yeah, I didn't want to bring him up. I didn't want to throw our dear brother under the bus. No, I think Hodge and Warfield certainly, you know, It went outside the boundaries in a way that I'm not comfortable with. So, you know, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.

Does that necessarily include, you know, the age of the earth? Again, I believe... based on what I understand scripturally in a young earth. I believe in six literal days.

But can a guy believe on the Lord Jesus and not accept six literal days and still be saved? I would say yes. God is gracious. God is gracious.

It's not about our knowledge. You're not saved based on Christ and your cosmology. You're saved based on what Christ has accomplished. Now, having said that, I think it is important.

I think that Jesus and the apostles treat the early chapters of Genesis as history. not as fable, not as literary, you know, and I think, you know, because some have recognized, you know, genius literary style in the book of Genesis. I don't think that's inconsistent with conveying truth. I think you can have both, genius literary convention that does teach six literal days creation.

I don't think it's one or the other. So, you know. Yeah, but with evolution, then you got suffering before the fall, which doesn't make sense, right? That's been one of those things, you know, people get into, a lot of Christians are very into, you know, the answers in Genesis, and it's just never been a problem for me.

And I don't say that, therefore, that's all bad. It's just certain. Everybody has their own tendencies or inclinations. I wasn't a scientist.

I don't ever think I'll be a scientist. I have no desire to be a scientist. I got converted. The Bible says this.

Okay. I haven't needed to kind of beer behind the scene or know the shape of the universe. And that's fine. People can do that.

They're great too. But that's not just not my forte. It's not really an interest for me. It's like when we approach chapter 4 in our confession, you know, there could be, you know, have Ken Ham come.

No, I think the chapter is teaching theology. I think it's teaching Scripture, you know, and the glory of God and the manifestation of God and that. So, you know, but not that Ken Ham isn't important. Great.

He does a good thing. It's just never been kind of my thing, right? I really appreciate it. I've gone to some creation presentations, but just to see...

the majesty of God in creation, the small things and cells and molecules and the big things and the stars. It's good to stand in awe of that. It's great. And I would go to that ark.

I'd like to walk that ark. I would. But it's probably not on my first, you know, top five list of places to visit. You know what I mean?

But God's people are different and they have different interests. They have different, you know, things. That's great. Backgrounds.

I'm all for that. They grew up evolution. That's just how they grew up. They went to university, and they never stopped to think about it.

But they do, because it impacts ministry and the gospel. Oh, it sure does. Christ. Yeah, absolutely.

Okay, and yeah, what are our speakers set for next year? For sure one, Dr. Daniel Scheider, and working on the other. So yeah, website for the conference is confessingthefaith.

ca where you can obviously get information and register there. And then past years. Yes, recordings from past years are all online. Chapter one of the Holy Scriptures and of God and the Trinity.

And then of God's decree. God's decree. They're all really well. All right.

Pastor Butler, how to sing, pray, or yes, just praying the imprecatory Psalms and bless our enemies. Can that be done at the same time? They seem contradictory. So, how do we reconcile that with Christ's command to bless and not curse our enemies?

Yeah, that's a great question. It may be difficult, but we can do it. I think the tendency of some in the church to take the Psalms of David that contain imprecations, that means basically calling down a curse upon your enemies, is to conclude that that's antiquated, that's barbaric, that's something confined to David, that really shouldn't be duplicated in this New Testament setting. The first thing I would say is that the New Testament itself contains imprecations.

Paul in 1 Corinthians 16 says, �If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.� Which I would say outdoes David in the Psalms. David says, �Shatter my enemy's teeth.� Paul is saying, �Let him be damned to hell.

� Okay, that's 1 Corinthians 16, 22. Paul in 2 Timothy chapter 4 says, Alexander the coppersmith did me much harm, may the Lord repay him. And I don't think he means by grace, mercy, forgiveness, and, you know, a spot next to the Lord Jesus in the kingdom to come. You know, Paul in Galatians chapter 1 pronounces an anathema, a curse, upon anybody that would twist or distort the gospel.

So, to dismiss imprecations as being, you know, unbiblical is to deal unjustly with New Testament texts. The second thing I would say is that when it comes to these imprecations that you find in the Psalms of David, that they're prayers of Christ ultimately. I think that Jesus is the subject, the object, the author, the composer, the singer, and the prayer of the Psalms. And I think that's important to keep in mind.

Jesus was a man of sorrows and He was acquainted with grief. The Psalms led us into His mindset during His earthly ministry. And as we would expect from somebody that's true humanity, true human being, there's a hatred and a detestation for that which is contrary to His Father. He hates and abhors the wickedness.

And so, He cries out for vindication. He cries out for God's justice. To reject the imprecatory Psalms is to reject God's justice. It is to reject, in principle, God's righteousness and the reality that I think the Bible always and everywhere presents that God is a just judge.

He is going to bring vengeance upon His enemies. He is going to shatter the teeth of His enemies. He is going to smash them and cast them down. Now, I suggest that for us, if we want to invoke these psalms, if we want to pray or sing these psalms, we need to remember their scripture.

I know there's times when we've sang Psalm 11 in our church, and I've often wondered, I've often sympathized with the newbie that's just found their way into our church, and it talks about God raining coals of fire upon his enemies. You know, that's not your typical Christian fare on a Sunday morning. You're not singing about God smashing His enemy's teeth. Well, we do sing imprecatory songs.

And so, yeah, I do wonder, this is probably the first and the last time this person will ever visit with us. But we need to remember that they're given to us by God. They're Scripture. They're God-breathed Scripture, and they're about Jesus.

Jesus tells us they're about Him in Luke's Gospel. So for us to sing them, we can sing them in the spirit of Scripture, and we sing Scripture. To pray them and make them our own, we need to remember they're Christ's and they're David's, and by extension they are the church's. But they're not to be utilized for little issues, you know, your boss was mean to you at work.

You don't pray God to smash his teeth. You don't. You don't pray for God to cause the car that cut you off in traffic to crash, to spin over and burn up. That would be a vindictive, self-centered appropriation of those Psalms.

we are to bless those who curse us. We are, in a general tenor of God's benevolent love to others, not bump into people, not invoke God's wrath upon them. But when it comes to certain grave attacks against the majesty of the Most High and against His Christ, Is it legit to pray that God would stop His enemies? I think it's perfectly legit.

Can we use the language of the Psalter to voice those concerns? Yes. I don't see anything that would keep us from praying that God take those enemies and smash them under His hand of justice. Again, not my enemy that cut me off or took the last whatever at Walmart, but those enemies of the gospel, those enemies of Christ, those enemies that are abusing and hurting and violating Christ's little ones.

Yeah! To say no, we need to love those who are cutting off our brothers and sisters tongues. We are to love those who are, you know, raping Christian sisters. We are to love those who, you know, abort babies and celebrate ghoulishness.

No, we can love them with that love of benevolence. You know, I'm not going to set you on fire, but with the love for God and the purity of His gospel and the glory of His name, take these wretches out. You know, I've presented at our church what I think are not what I think, it's not like Jim thinks, but, you know, I've thought through this and I've read some stuff on this and, you know, with civil authority, how do we pray for civil government in a Psalms of David sort of fashion? Well, I pray first and foremost that God redeem.

We saw that in our study in 1 Timothy 2 the other night. God, why do we pray for kings and all who are in authority? Because God wants to save all men, not all men without exception, but all men without distinction, all kinds of men. So, pray for their salvation.

But if they're not going to be saved, we can pray that God restrains them, right? Get restrained, wholly restrained. Solomon says that the king's heart is in the hand of Yahweh. He turns it wherever he wishes, like water.

So, God, restrain them. And if not, then remove them. I don't get nitty-gritty, here's how I think you should remove them. They can choke on their morning eggs.

They could crash their car. However God wants to remove them is up to Him. And if that means some violent, bloody way, then that's up to Him. You know, the voice of a God and not a man.

Herod in Acts chapter 12, he was eaten by worms and died. God's free to do that. And nobody's free to say, well, that doesn't seem right. That doesn't seem fair.

This was an enemy of the Most High, arrogating to himself that he was the Most High, and God took him out. So, you know, redeem them, restrain them, or remove them. Why would we continue to be okay with guys that promote, you know, wide-scale mass murder? Because I love my enemies?

Yeah, I love my enemies in that I'm not setting them on fire, but I don't love godless men who are destroying countries through, you know, murder and mayhem. Take them out. I think if ever there was a time to pray the imprecatory Psalms of David, now's probably as good a time as it could be. You know, the hymns and the singing and the songs in churches today, you know, it can be so effeminate.

We're the church militant. Let's sing Psalm 68. Let's sing Psalm 94. Let's sing Psalm 58.

Let's sing Psalm 11. Let's sing these songs that our brothers in Christ have sung throughout millennia as they marched to the gallows, as they fought in battles, as they promoted Christ and His cross. I think what the church sings oftentimes is indicative of how the church functions. And if it's all these, you know, shallow, vapid, weird songs, of course we're going to be effeminate.

You've always got this quote you read from, is it Ralph Davis or something, about the weak fellow? He comes raking of hand cream. Yeah. But he's a conquering warrior on a horse, right?

He's a conquering warrior. That's right. So crushing the enemies, yeah, could be killed them, right, or something, right? Or he could crush them by his grace.

Yeah, and humble them. Yeah, bring them to salvation. That's where, you know, David gets pretty vocal. Yeah, break their teeth.

You know, we could repeat those in song or in prayer, but ultimately, David would have been content. However, God chose to remove those enemies. Some of the language is more symbolic. Oh, sure.

Yeah, yeah. And there's things that, yeah, definitely invoke or assume other images that are used in the Scripture. Yeah. And there's a great essay, there's a couple of good things on imprecatory Psalms.

I mean, I think it's an area that should be studied. There's a good, there's a book called Sing a New Song. It's edited by Joel Beakey and I want to say I can't remember the guy, Savaggio, some long name. But it's just multi authors contributing essays.

And I think it was David, I'm gonna mess up his name. One of the guys, David Murray, wrote the article or the essay on the imprecatory Psalms. It was very good, brief, really good. There's a book by a Reformed Baptist pastor called War Songs of the Prince of Peace.

which gets high marks just for that title alone. The book could have been garbage, and that title, War Psalms or War Songs of the Prince of Peace, either War Psalms or Psalms. But it's really good. It's very helpful.

There's some good things in there to think through and some good things to ponder. You can't just dismiss it and say, well, that's the Old Testament. It doesn't matter for us today. Well, you've got Paul invoking God's wrath upon distorters of the gospel.

You've got problems if, in principle, you take out God's justice, judgment, and righteousness inflicted against His enemies. Are drums and other musical instruments okay for corporate worship? So, for someone... Cam really likes bongos, so...

So, yeah, for someone raised on organ-only, piano-only, psalms-only, acapella... It's just the bongos. How should they think about it? Their church has eight instruments, other instruments...

You want me to do it, or you gonna do it? Bongos, drums... I can start. Yeah, I can start.

What's the problem? I would say no. And the reason I would say no is a covenantal argument. I believe that the covenant you're in regulates the way that you worship.

And the new covenant is very clear that worship is simple. In worship, we sing the Word. In worship, we pray the Word. In worship, we preach the Word.

In worship, we see the Word in the sacraments. In other words, we do what the New Covenant tells us to do when it comes to the worship of God. Traditionally, this has been called in the Reformed world the regulative principle of worship. In other words, we do what God commands.

We're not free to do anything other than what God commands. So, when you go to the pages of the New Testament, you don't see drums. I'd argue you don't see organs. I'd argue you don't see pianos.

You don't see any of that. You see simple worship, singing the Word to God, Psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs. The Old Covenant, there was an emphasis on musical instruments. They were mandated, they were commanded by God to be utilized in temple worship.

And if persons say, well, then that means we should do it today. Well, remember in Old Covenant, you had a temple, you had a priesthood, you had sacrifices, you had incense, you had things that were unique to Old Covenant worship, those things plus their instruments. You get to the New Covenant, The undergirding principle is the same. We come before the one true and living God and we worship Him.

We do it based on that covenant we're in. Old covenant, you had musical instruments. Old covenant, you had priesthood. Old covenant, you had sacrifice.

Old covenant, you had tabernacle and temple. Old covenant, you had all that. New covenant, you don't have all that. We are the priesthood, we are the temple, we have the great High Priest, our Lord Jesus, and so we come to Him in a very simple way.

And when older authors address this, they basically explain it that the Jews under the Old Covenant were more carnal. And they don't mean by that necessarily sinful, but there was a carnality involved in their worship that spoke to that covenantal age. Whereas in the New Covenant, Christ has come. The fullness of blessing has come.

We worship God in the Spirit, in spirit and in truth. which typically John 4 is taught as, you know, with your heart and head. I don't think that's what he means when he says worship in spirit and truth. I think he means Trinitarian worship.

We come to the Father, through the Son, in the Spirit. And that's a simple approach, not marked by temple, building, sacrifices, incense, priesthood. Simple. Sing the Word, pray the Word, preach the Word, see the Word.

That's it. So with the Old Covenant and all those sacrifices and everything to do with the tabernacle, the temple, the majority of those things pointed to Christ and are fulfilled. But a harp or a trumpet, I would say, is not a type or a shadow of Christ. But they were specifically commanded by God for utilization in the worship of God.

And if we take the principle as stated, the regulative principle, we do what God commands. There's no statement in the New Testament that says, you know, make a drum. or make an organ, or make a pipe organ, as beautiful as they may sound, and bring them into worship. Now, the big debate, obviously, is this.

Are those elements of worship, or are they circumstances? Some people would suggest that they're circumstances. They help us to comply with the element which is singing. That's an intramural debate.

That's probably why we have a piano, and we haven't sold it at a garage sale yet. It's just, there's some difficult things to parse out. But, you know, there's a great book on this subject as well. It's written by a Reformed Baptist pastor.

It's called Old Light on New Worship, and it's basically a case against musical instruments. And the author's final sort of conclusion is, if you have a piano, don't sell it. You know, don't get rid of that. If you are, you know, if you are captured by or captivated by his argument, but don't add more instruments.

You know, the better part of wisdom. Why are you wanting to add more instruments? Is it just a better experience, subjective, emotional kind of thing? Is it really supporting the singing better?

That's right. And you know, I'll go on record, I hope to communicate this to our church more formally soon, but people have asked, why are we singing a cappella now? Is it because of your preferences? No, we did it at the conference.

It was great. And people have been saying, can we do that more often in our church? And the more we do it, people are saying, wow, we really like that. So it's a good thing.

And you know, it's not me smuggling in or my attempt to get rid of the piano or anything like that. Nothing nefarious. But it's okay to sing praised, and our church sings good. If we didn't sing well, we'd fill it up with more piano.

But we really sing good, or well is probably the better way to say that. But even if we got like 10 people at a Bible study, it's like great singing. It's good singing. I know.

Yeah. And so let's utilize that. That's a good thing. Yeah.

Yeah. So, yeah, for our church, at least while we're on our watch, there's not going to be bongos and, you know, guitars. And, you know, the alternative is, you know, the Reformed church is, okay, they might have an organ, they might have a piano, some might throw in a violin, whatever. But, you know, out in the evangelical world, I mean, you've got very talented musicians, and it becomes more of an entertainment session or a rock concert than it has any bearing on the worship of God.

I just think that's wrong. We're not there to see a guy shred on his Les Paul guitar. You can watch YouTube videos and see guys probably shred better on Les Paul guitars than you would on a Sunday morning in an evangelical church, but that's not why we're at church. We're not there to watch this guy that is great.

And wasn't it Augustine? Be careful. Be careful when it comes to music. Music has great potential to lead you toward God or away from God.

It really does. I remember reading that John Price book on Old Light on New Worship and thinking about it, and he makes that point, the psychological element. Music really does have power. And I remember, I won't name the song that I was listening to, but I had the radio on in the car, and it was this older song, and I started getting stirred up emotionally.

Like, I'm not sure I was wiping tears from my eyes, but it just verified that principle. You know, you put horrible things in a nice package, people receive horrible things. I mean, some songs are terrible. Oh, yeah.

This could be a whole video on its own, like Hillsong and Bethel and Elevation and all these goons. They're putting horrible things in a good sounding package. And, you know, people are shaped by that medium. Yeah.

It was Ravi Zacharias. I'm not here to comment on him, either good or bad, but he says, you know, it's what people watch on TV, what movies they view, what music they listen to, that's what shapes the mind. That's where your philosophy is today. You want to change a generation?

Just sit them in front of a TV and put your message in. Same with music. I mean, you could be thinking or singing the worst possible things, but it's melodic and it sounds so nice. Got to be careful of that.

It's truth. Psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs. Why more emphasis on singing psalms? Because you're not going to go wrong with them.

I mean, God wrote them. Well, these aren't fit for corporate worship. Well, God wrote them, so yeah, they are perfectly fine. Some of them are paraphrased a fair amount.

Yeah, some are paraphrased. But they're still pretty good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's certainly something to be cautious about, careful of.

Okay, good there. All right, another, yeah, I guess regular principle question. Collection of offerings. Is it part of the Lord's Day worship?

So why does our church not pass around a bag or a plate or a box or what have you? Isn't giving part of Lord's Day worship? Yeah, I would think so. I think we should be.

I mean, there's things...this is why I sent you guys an email right before we came. Some of these questions are, why do we do what we do? And we have inconsistencies and we have idiosyncrasies.

So if anybody questions, if you get these FGBC questions that are unique to us, tell them to come and I can happily explain. You know, all things being equal, I did what we were already doing when I got here. And, you know, unless something is broken, you don't typically try to fix it. But no, I think there is prudence and wisdom and, you know, passing the hat, so to speak, or whatever.

I do think, however, though, it shouldn't...I wouldn't want to make visitors...I don't think it's a visitor's place. If they want to cough up and give, they're free to.

But churches shouldn't, because I've heard that as arguments in the past, and we should be passing the hat, for lack of a better term, so that we can get the money. No, no, no, no, no, no. That's the members of the church. It's their responsibility.

We look after ourselves. And I wouldn't want it to be. And you know, the complaints about sort of Protestants or Evangelical or any kind of churches, they're always, you know, after my money. Well, why?

Because some churches are after your money. And that's not something I want to portray or communicate. Look, if you want to give, you're free to do that. But we're not going to pressure you.

We're not going to bind your conscience. I showed up to this church. I better make sure I've got a 20. That's not a good thing.

Yeah. And today people, sorry, I'm going to jump in there, but people are giving online and we got technology and bank transfers and stuff, right? So I don't know how much money our Deacons are actually counting. But it does, it does.

But I do get, and I, the, the sense of the, the spirit of the question's right. Am I worshiping God when I'm doing an e-transfer? That question was very good, and it wasn't lost on me. And I get the possible disparity, because if it is an act of worship, ideally before I hit sand on that e-transfer, I should bless God, praise God, thank you for prospering me, but I don't usually do that.

So it does take away from the worship part of the giving. Yeah, no, I was just, you had started the question by saying something like speaking of the regulative principle of worship. And I think it'd be an important distinction or important question to ask, you know, is the offering, is the giving an element of the divine liturgy? And confessionally speaking, we can see that it's not included.

the reading of the scriptures, preaching, hearing the word of God, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, singing with grace in our hearts to the Lord, as also the administration of baptism in the Lord's Supper, are all parts of religious worship of God, to be performed in obedience to Him with understanding, faith, reverence, and godly fear, as well solemn humiliation with fastings and thanksgivings. So those are the elements of the Divine Liturgy. So the question can be asked, well, where is the offering? Where is the passing of the hat?

Where is the wooden box on the long wooden pole? It's not there. That doesn't mean it's not worship. That doesn't mean it shouldn't happen on the Lord's Day.

I think there's a distinction here between what constitutes the Divine Liturgy in the context of the gathering of the Church and what is something that the Church ought to do. perhaps yes, on the first day of the week, as we have evidence in the Bible. It's interesting though, those biblical examples have to do with special collections for a special relief effort. It isn't just the giving of offerings generally speaking for, you know, within the context of church like we do in the passing of a hat or, you know, the passing of the box.

It's something different going on there, contextual to the early church with regards to the provision of relief. So, is it an element of the divine liturgy? Confessionally speaking, it's not included, and I think that that says something. So when I transfer on a Thursday, I can feel happy about it?

I think you can. Okay, thank you. Thank you, Pope. Pope camera?

Yes, that's a, well, you need a papal bull, you know. But definitely a lot of abuse in churches we've seen, just compulsion and just these, now I forget some of these names, but they've got their jets and their nose and everything. And yeah, if you don't give money, And you know, some of these practical questions, again, feel at times very much directed to our church. And I wonder if how many they come from you.

But they're tough. There's some things that are tough to navigate and tough to figure out. And good men disagree and good men differ. And we always need to make sure we maintain that spirit of charity.

You know, when I was talking about musical instruments, if you are a confessional Reformed Baptist and you've got a flute and you've got a violin, I'm not going to not come to your church. I'm not going to pronounce anathemas on you. I'm just not. You know, there's latitude in things that really aren't as good.

Justification by faith alone is crystal clear. You cannot mess that up. You can get different on certain things, and I think we need to be okay with that. I mean, it'd be great if everybody did it just the way we did.

No, it wouldn't. That would be bad. And I know there are inconsistencies in our church. I know that.

I live with that. My motto now is, I've got to leave some things for my successors to fix. I don't want to fix everything. Not that I could, but they got to have something to do too.

I think that's a good posture at this point. But yeah, we went through, I guess, 10 questions there out of the 30 or 40. Oh, that's good. I think we covered a lot of ground.

Save some for next time. Sure, yeah. I think we covered a lot of ground. I think it was some good discussion.

Yeah, and the majority are all submitted online, right, through the website. So if you're listening to this, yeah, submit your questions. I prefer real ones. I can think ones up, and I use AI and stuff, but it just never lands the same as a real question and somebody behind that.

Yeah, totally, yeah. But some I get just from conversations with people at church and what have you. That's good. All right.

Well, thank you. Very good. Thank you.