0:00 Pastor David Charles Before we get started, I want to remind everybody I generally just ask the questions and Dr. Rinahan always explains to me what I believe. So any questions that may come my way, I'm just going to defer to Dr. Rinahan.
0:13 Dr James Renihan Thanks.
0:13 Dr. Richard Barcellos Tell me what I believe.
0:15 Pastor David Charles Yeah, tell me what I believe.
0:18 Pastor Jim Butler All right, so the first one, Dr. Barcelos: Eve's nature wasn't corrupted until Adam partook because of federal headship. Wasn't there moral corruption in Eve before the covenant was broken?
0:35 Dr. Richard Barcellos The prohibition in Genesis 2:17 was first spoken to Adam, and I think that the curse is clear that we— the circumstantial cause of the infliction of death upon Adam was Adam's actual taking and eating of the fruit, not any, any transgression of the moral law in his heart that might have occurred before that, because it did, or anything his wife did. So the greatest mystery— and I was glad reading James Dolzhoff's article in the Gerbs that we put together a long time ago— I'm glad he said It's one thing to try to explain divine agency and human agency this side of the fall into sin, because we experience it all the time. It's another thing to explain how did the first sin even happen without the deformity of nature. So my answer to that is I don't know.
1:41 Pastor David Charles Okay, can I—
1:44 Dr James Renihan yeah, yeah. John Murray calls that the one of the three, uh, insuperable problems in the fall. We just can't. We don't know how to solve that. In fact, I remember being in Greg Nichols' class and he said, if you solve it, you fail.
1:57 Pastor Jim Butler That's good.
2:00 Dr. Richard Barcellos Yeah. And if you deny the fall, you prove it by your denial.
2:05 Pastor David Charles Well, to the question, can we make a distinction between the corruption and the guilt that is transmitted from Adam to the So the corruption was there, obviously it was corrupt for her too, but the transmission of guilt is because of Adam's federal headship.
2:27 Dr James Renihan Yeah, remember that she was deceived and Adam was not. That's a significant difference between the two.
2:35 Pastor Jim Butler This isn't addressed to anyone in particular, but I think it goes along with one of the things that Dr. Barcelos brought out. Was God's hardening of Pharaoh's heart an example of his permissive will What about Proverbs 21:1, "The king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of the Lord"?
2:56 Dr. Richard Barcellos David?
2:57 Pastor David Charles Yes.
3:03 Pastor Jim Butler So, permissive will?
3:06 Dr James Renihan You're the one who talked about it.
3:07 Pastor Jim Butler You keep looking at other people.
3:08 Dr. Richard Barcellos Oh, I—
3:09 Pastor David Charles We didn't use that language, you did.
3:11 Dr. Richard Barcellos That's a textual question. We're doing theology, so—
3:15 Pastor Jim Butler You already did your exegesis.
3:18 Dr. Richard Barcellos I did my exegesis. I said yes, 40 years ago, but I forgot. What would you say, James P. Butler?
3:26 Pastor Jim Butler I defer to you.
3:26 Dr. Richard Barcellos Because he's preached through all the texts and read John Gill's entire commentary.
3:30 Pastor Jim Butler Oh, I would defer to you.
3:32 Pastor David Charles You know, let me try this, referencing, as I recall, Dulles'— it really is an outstanding article, if it's the same one.
3:42 Dr. Richard Barcellos It is. It's the one you recommended in your chapter.
3:45 Pastor David Charles And when we talk about cause, first cause, second cause, even though we use that language, the relationship between the two can't really be mapped out because one's eternal and infinite and the other one's dependent. And so if we, we talk about God as the first cause of Pharaoh hardening his heart, the, the relationship between the two, there's not a parity there.
4:13 Dr. Richard Barcellos At all.
4:13 Pastor David Charles They're— we have to use that language because if we're going to say something— how did Augustine say? We use these terms, let's be reduced to saying nothing. So I guess it goes back to one of the inscrutable things. We know it's true.
4:30 Dr. Richard Barcellos Read the question again, maybe I can retrieve something.
4:33 Pastor Jim Butler Now, was God's hardening of Pharaoh's heart an example of his permissive will And then follow up, what about Proverbs 21:1, the king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of the Lord, which seems to indicate— was it permissive? He allows the deformed, but God directs the king's heart.
4:55 Dr James Renihan Yeah, it's important to remember that Pharaoh hardened his own heart, so the Lord's action of hardening Pharaoh's heart is really Pharaoh's own hardening of his heart, which the Lord allowed him to do. So how would you relate that to a decree that we're not to probe into? The decree— the secret things of God belong to him, belong to God.
5:20 Dr. Richard Barcellos Yeah, yeah. The question is, has— is it— has God decreed to permit certain things like the hardening of his heart? Is Is that what it is?
5:31 Pastor Jim Butler What was the— you made the distinction between the permissive will and the effective will. The effective will. So as I understood it, the effective will is God affecting it directly upon the person versus permissive, God allowing the person— God allowing persons to function. So I think the nature of the question— God hardens Pharaoh's heart, which sounds like the effective will. Or, or effective or permissive will, but the fact that Pharaoh's heart's in God's hand seems to be—
6:05 Dr. Richard Barcellos the king's hand is in the— the king's heart is in the hand of the Lord. He turns it wherever he wishes. That's right. So is there effective willing of God in, let's say, unconverted magistrates? Does he directly cause their minds to be tinkered with so that they make certain decisions? It's a good question. Next.
6:26 Pastor Jim Butler And likely it's, it's not everything in the life of that king. Yeah, he goes to the bathroom now, you know what I mean? Like, the big things are the things that the, the Pharaoh was affected by God in terms of the hard— or the control over the big things. I don't know. Who asked the question? Are we getting at it at all? Does anybody here?
6:56 Dr. Richard Barcellos I asked it.
6:57 Pastor David Charles Doc Runahan asked it. I didn't ask it.
7:01 Pastor Jim Butler Did anybody ask it? I mean, I think we're just not getting it.
7:05 Pastor David Charles You asked it?
7:06 Dr James Renihan Yeah.
7:07 Pastor David Charles How?
7:07 Pastor Jim Butler I wanted the distinction between the effective and the permissible. I think we covered it.
7:12 Dr. Richard Barcellos Okay. Okay.
7:13 Pastor Jim Butler Thank you. I got to say, I've scrolled through these. There's a lot of really good questions.
7:18 Dr. Richard Barcellos I didn't think so.
7:20 Pastor David Charles Can we take the book back?
7:28 Pastor Jim Butler Okay, here's the next one. Again, it's not addressed to anyone in particular. Doc— Doc— Well, maybe Dr. Barcelos. You sure evoked a lot of questions.
7:36 Dr. Richard Barcellos I need to get on a different channel.
7:39 Pastor Jim Butler Dr. Barcelos described free will as acting according to our nature. Did God create Adam or Satan with deficient natures, making God the author of sin?
7:48 Dr. Richard Barcellos Yeah, that was a good— that was a good question. That's where the punt comes in. Punt. I don't know how to answer that question. It's a great mystery. I mean, I can— I can talk about created agencies like Satan and the, you know, the fall of the non-elect angels. How can that happen when they're created good and perfect and there's nothing evil And yet we know there are things called elect angels, therefore there must be non-elect angels. How did the fall of angels occur? It's easier to possibly explain the fall of man than the fall of angels. Yeah, because I would agree, that wicked liar. By the way, Genesis 3 is full of satanic lies, okay? It's— when next time you read it, think that he's a liar from the beginning. He He's telling her lies. He's not telling her truths, he's telling her lies. Anyway, it might be easier, I think it is, to try to explain how Adam and/or Eve, who were created with knowledge, righteousness, and holiness, the image of God, and perfect, 2 London 6:1, right? Perfect, mature, fully equipped to do that for which they were made. With original righteousness, it's easier, I think, to try to explain that— able to sin, able not to sin— than the fall of the original fall of the angels. So it's a hard question. I don't think it's a question like— if you're sitting here going, I can't wait till I'm dead because I'm going to ask that question, you're not going to ask that question. I mean, you might, but it won't be the first thing you do when you're absent from the body, with the present with the Lord. However the soul goes, oh, that's the first thing you're going to do when you're absent from the body, present with the Lord.
9:43 Pastor Jim Butler Yeah, there's just some tough, tough things.
9:45 Dr. Richard Barcellos You know, Paul Helm— I was reading somebody and they said, they quoted Paul Helm, referred to Paul Helm, and Paul Helm on this issue said we, we need to keep ourselves low because he says, I'm not convinced we're in the position to answer these kinds of questions. You know, God has not revealed and might not ever reveal, um, how these two things may be so. You know, that does not— he mean, he does not know.
10:18 Pastor David Charles So going back to Dr. Renahan's, you know, the secret things belong to God, I mean, that really covers a lot, doesn't it? And like you said in a very technical theological manner. Some of these we encounter— Romans 9, shut up, you're human, you can't— you can't—
10:39 Dr. Richard Barcellos it's very technical.
10:40 Pastor David Charles You're asking—
10:40 Dr. Richard Barcellos that's in Mueller's dictionary. Shut up.
10:43 Dr James Renihan It's in Latin though.
10:46 Dr. Richard Barcellos Yeah, here's, here's another thing, Jim. Something just came back into my mind and then it left really fast. What was it, Cam? Just put your hands up like probe into my brain. What was I just gonna say?
10:59 Pastor David Charles That was a frightening word.
11:01 Dr. Richard Barcellos Yeah, um, well, this is another one of those positions that mean more—
11:06 Dr James Renihan those matters that Murray argues we can't— we don't have a way to solve.
11:10 Dr. Richard Barcellos Oh, oh, this, this high mystery of predestination must be, must be treated carefully, right?
11:17 Dr James Renihan Yeah, with prudence.
11:18 Dr. Richard Barcellos Paragraph 7. It reminded me recently, I was reading again Of God and of Christ. Is that Gregory Nazianzus? G-Naz? Of God and of Christ. In there someplace toward the beginning, he says something like this: theology is not for everyone. Remember that? I was reading it in my front yard with a guy from our church, newer believer, and we've worked our way up. He said, I want to read something from the patristics. So I said, let's read this one. And we have another guy in our church, a younger believer who has a really charismatic background, and he wants to know— you know, he'll text me like, did Christ die for the non-elect? I didn't answer him the first time he asked that because he just read something for the first time about particular redemption. And he— I've told him before, you're asking questions you're not able to handle the answer. You won't understand enough of the foundational doctrines first to really understand these kinds of things. So be patient. And he just gets really frustrated. Doesn't get— he probably gets— he'll call it righteous anger. It's probably sinful, probably, because it's aimed at me. But I think some of these things, that's, you know, like we're discussing on one level, and then when you go read James Dolezal, you realize, okay, there are guys, you know, thousands of people, men and women, that can discuss it on another level. And but nobody gets up to God. We're all creatures wrestling with the data before us. Some more able— like some people can hear a sermon or a lecture on the doctrine of the divine decree and they go, man, I got to read my Bible more. And other people are going to go, what's the use? But those people that say, what the use, say, let's go eat.
13:02 Pastor David Charles If the—
13:02 Dr. Richard Barcellos what's the use, don't go eat. Right. Nobody applies that reg— that consistently, by the way.
13:09 Pastor Jim Butler Sure. Okay, the next one, I'm going to just direct it to, to Dr. Renahan. As we study God's exhaustive decree, what are the dangers of hyper-Calvinism and how can we avoid them?
13:26 Dr. Richard Barcellos You can sing the song.
13:28 Dr James Renihan What's the song?
13:30 Dr. Richard Barcellos Whatever will be, okay. The future's not ours.
13:38 Dr James Renihan Doris Day. Well, I think that, you know, hyper-Calvinism and Arminianism are mirror image errors, really. Um, there's too much on the one, there's too much emphasis on humanity, and the other, there's a false notion of who God is and how God works in the world. And I think that, um, principally at the root, that's what we have to get at when we're dealing with hyper-Calvinism, is, is that false view of who God is and how God acts. And I, I think that it is appearing into the things that God has not revealed. It's, it It ends up being speculation about his ways that leads to conclusions that are not consonant with what the Word of God says.
14:35 Pastor Jim Butler Good. Thank you. And what's the difference between infra- and supralapsarianism, and how do the viewpoints tie into the covenant of redemption? In 2 minutes, if we're going to get anywhere near— that's for Cam to answer this list.
14:52 Dr James Renihan He does well on that one. You want to come up here and answer it, Cam?
14:56 Pastor Jim Butler Yeah.
14:57 Dr James Renihan We'll be glad to. Hey, don't—
14:59 Pastor Jim Butler But my encouragement, 2 minutes.
15:02 Pastor Cam Porter Yeah, yeah.
15:04 Dr. Richard Barcellos Cam, Cam, Cam, hold on. Sit down, Cam. Don't mess this up.
15:08 Pastor Jim Butler No.
15:10 Dr. Richard Barcellos OK. A minute 54.
15:12 Pastor David Charles You want to share?
15:13 Pastor Cam Porter No, no, no, I'm good. We were talking about this during your Symbolics course, Dr. Renahan. And I think an easy— the quickest difference between Infra and Supra is the order of the decrees. That's what the lapsarian debates are concerning, the order of the decrees. In what logical order does God decree the salvation of the elect? And so Infra would say— Infra would say that the decree concerning the salvation of the elect by the perfect work of Jesus Christ comes after the decree that man would fall. And so if we look at, if we look at the, uh, a passage like Romans 9, for example, Romans 9:22-23, I think it is, um, we see God having a purpose in the salvation of the elect and a purpose in the damnation of the reprobate. So if infralapsarianism says that the decree concerning the salvation of the elect by virtue of the perfect work of Jesus Christ comes after the decree for the fall of man and after the decree for creation, then superlapsarian says that the decree to save the elect through the perfect work of Jesus Christ is primary. That's the first decree in the logical order of the decrees, so that the connection to the covenant of redemption is that if not if, since that is the decree within the Trinity to save the salvation of a multitude that no man can number through the redemption of Jesus Christ, then superlapsarianism is right. No, but it concerns the order. So what, what, what, what concerns, or how does history flesh out based upon the decree of God? Does God start with creation, then with the fall, then with the salvation of the elect? Or in the mind of God, is it my glory through the salvation of sinners, through the perfect work of Jesus Christ, and then all of the means whereby that's going to come to blessed fruition? And that just comes back to the decree that we've been talking about here. In eternity, God decreed the salvation of a multitude that no man can number by the perfect work of Jesus Christ. And then orders those things— creation, the fall, the proclamation of the word— um, joined by the power of the Holy Spirit to bring many sons to glory.
17:46 Pastor Jim Butler Great, thank you.
17:48 Dr James Renihan Good answer.
17:48 Pastor Jim Butler Yeah, and that was like 2 minutes and probably 37 seconds.
17:53 Dr James Renihan But, but even, even in saying that, that's right. Thank you. I knew that you were doing that because they overheard you in the, in the class talking about that. That's why But we need to remember that God's decree is singular. Yeah, logically, supra versus infra. But actually, God's decree, eternal decree, is a singular act of God eternally, not occurring in time, of course. Right, right. Yeah.
18:19 Pastor David Charles Now, does— is the understanding of God's simplicity map onto that itself, that we don't see temporal, or is eternality— there's not He's thinking on Tuesday one thing, and then he adds to it on Wednesday, and so forth.
18:35 Dr James Renihan Yes. Yeah, yeah. Eternity is something that we can't conceive of. We can confess it, but we can't conceive of it.
18:44 Dr. Richard Barcellos And no succession—
18:46 Dr James Renihan no succession of God. Yeah, no, don't think about that.
18:49 Pastor David Charles You can't.
18:51 Dr James Renihan No, we endure, we experience a constant succession. Sometimes I think of it that our lives are like automobile tires that rotate, and they only touch the, the, the cement, the concrete, at one point. And that's like us in time, where for God that makes no sense at all, because he is— I am who I am— he is. So it's— yes, it's related to divine simplicity, because all that is in God is God.
19:22 Pastor David Charles Can I ask one more question about this? Because I'd really like to know Dr. Inahan's perspective.
19:27 Dr. Richard Barcellos Where's your mic?
19:28 Dr James Renihan It's right here.
19:31 Dr. Richard Barcellos It keeps—
19:32 Dr James Renihan is it bothering you?
19:34 Dr. Richard Barcellos Yeah.
19:34 Pastor Jim Butler Yeah, I'm having some feedback.
19:36 Dr. Richard Barcellos Could you not talk anymore? Yeah, I'm glad to.
19:40 Pastor David Charles If you were press, what do you think our confession reflects on the issue of super versus or lapsarian?
19:51 Dr James Renihan Um, I think that it uses language that can accommodate either view.
19:57 Pastor David Charles Okay.
19:57 Dr James Renihan Although John Fesco did his PhD on the question of infra and supra at the Westminster Assembly, and his conclusion was that the majority of the Westminster divines were infralapsarian. So I think our confession more reflects infralapsarian, but it's phrased in such a way that it does not exclude supralapsarianism.
20:22 Pastor Jim Butler Thank you. Any follow-up? Okay, again, 2 minutes. One of you can take a kick at this can. How can I practically preach or teach God's decree to those who are unfamiliar or hostile to exhaustive predestination of all things? In other words, a, yeah, confessionalist ends up in front of a bunch of Armenians.
20:47 Dr James Renihan I think that the advice of those in the English delegation to the Synod of Dort was really helpful, and that that's not the place to begin.
20:57 Dr. Richard Barcellos No.
20:57 Dr James Renihan When you're with people, it requires a level of caution in people's minds because there is too much speculation and there's too much human objection to divine actions. So you don't start there. You start— better to start simply with the doctrine of God and help them to understand better and better the greatness of the God that we worship. And as they grow in their understanding of who God is, then they'll be able to receive, uh, greater truths. I think that— I loved when I found that. I thought it was a really great statement.
21:33 Pastor Jim Butler Thank you.
21:34 Pastor David Charles Yeah, and, and something else too, uh, regeneration really reorders the human heart. And all Christians who've been regenerated love the Word of God. And, and even if they don't, you know, without the labeling of it, I think of a, a man of God preaching to the people of God just expound Scripture. They're going to love it even if they— you don't attach the, the proper theological terminology to it. I think that's the way you move anybody. I mean, the only reason I am what I am ultimately at the end of the day— Doc Renahan, of course— but it's, it's in my Bible.
22:19 Pastor Jim Butler It's in here.
22:19 Pastor David Charles If it wasn't in my Bible, I wouldn't, wouldn't be inclined towards it.
22:25 Dr. Richard Barcellos What I think Gene— Gene-az, is that who you call him? Gregory of Nazianzus meant is not that theology is not for everybody, but certain questions in theology, the pursuit of the answer requires a modicum of knowledge. And, and, uh, and the patristics always said this: a degree of holiness and piety and maturity. So some questions, in order to be answered, you have to— you have to lay the foundation. For instance, I think it's, um, Athanasius, um, on the Incarnation. Is that the guy's name? Yeah. I think he says, we're going to discuss the Incarnation of our Lord, but in order to do that in proper context and order, let's think about God as the Creator. And so he goes to creation, then he makes the distinction between God and himself, and God for creatures or for us. The, um, the divine economy, uh, theologia— God and himself given creatures or not, but in this case without creatures— and then oikonomia, God creating creatures and sustaining creatures and all that stuff. So even the doctrine of the incarnation, you can't understand it right unless you get God, right? And understand what God's works are and aren't. So I think that applies in this. I wouldn't go preach an 84-part series on Romans 9:15-23 or something.
23:59 Pastor Jim Butler And Paul's words, with all long-suffering and teaching. Be very patient as you approach these things— theology, Christology. And there's no problem telling like the brother you described, just keep showing up. A lot of your questions are going to be answered through the normal, regular, ordinary means of grace in the pulpit ministry.
24:23 Dr. Richard Barcellos Amen.
24:23 Pastor Jim Butler I don't think there's anything wrong with telling a new believer there's some, you know, crawling phase and toddling phase before you get into, you know, some of these more academic things. And just be faithful. Come to Bible study. Come to church. And a lot of times these things do get answered along the way. All right, let's go here. This— and these are some— you didn't think these were good? Is that what you want to say to the brethren here, is that you didn't think they were good? I think they're really good. I think that reflects good listening and some degree of mental ability. I'm very happy. All right, here's a good one. If God has decreed all things, is there legitimacy to the free offer of the gospel? I'd just say yes.
25:14 Pastor David Charles Oh, define free offer.
25:18 Pastor Jim Butler Yeah, well, we did that on the podcast. Yeah, if you're interested in that sort of a thing with the podcast that we did on Thursday, I— Wim will have it clipped out and sent away. I don't know when we'll see it, but we dealt with that. You got to make a distinction with the free offer of the gospel. We mean— certain people mean certain things with that. Freely preaching the gospel to every creature out there, as Jesus commands, that's the way that we understand free offer. Others understand free offer as a well-meant or sincere offer, but by that they don't mean that the preacher is well-meaning or sincere. They mean that God has a desire to even save the reprobate. And if that's what you mean, then you haven't been paying attention. I'm kidding. Um, so if we're just asking the question, if we believe in the decree and the exhaustive sovereignty of God in all things, is preaching the gospel legitimate? Yes. For since in the wisdom of God the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. So yes, God's comprehensive sovereignty does not mitigate the reality that means are involved in the proclamation of the truth is the means that he uses. But if you're of the mindset of the well-meant— if you want to raise your hand and identify yourself— yeah, I mean by that the, the well-meant God has to have that desire. Does that summarize?
26:49 Dr. Richard Barcellos Yeah. And it's— and sometimes it's presented in such a way that the, the warrant for faith, or the, the ground that gives you the right to come to Christ is this thing in God, this inclination, I guess, toward you of goodness. Now, then, if you distinguish between an elect unbeliever hearing the gospel and a non-elect person hearing the gospel, what is the warrant for faith? Well, I have to believe that God really wants me to come there. But we know God has not decreed that everybody would come to Christ, right? So, so then they distinguish some in the well-meant offer camp. They say, well, God has— God has a will that they would be saved, that he— that he has not decreed. So he has an inclination within God, there's a desire in God for the reprobate to be actually and really saved, but he hasn't decreed it. There's a technical term— there's two technical terms for that, and I forget both of them. But when the first, first time I read it, I thought, stupid. What's that? Stupid and stupider. Um, first time I read it, I thought, wait a minute, there are pent-up emotions or something in God that God doesn't decree, they're still real, and that's the basis for the well-meant offer? It's okay if God hasn't decreed those things to be that he has in him. How do you know he has those things in him? I guess it's because of these texts. But I think they read into the text something that they require to be there. John Gerstner said it, why should you believe in the gospel? Because God commands it. And when I heard him say that, I go, yeah, that's it.
28:46 Pastor Jim Butler You always know it's getting good when he brings Gerstner into something, Johnny Gerstner. John Gerstner.
28:53 Pastor David Charles I mean, it— you think about that, the, the impossibility that God suffers in a, an internal, eternal, internal conflict.
29:08 Pastor Jim Butler Yeah, we concluded in the discussion with the podcast that if you have that particular view, it definitely infringes upon a sound doctrine, view of theology.
29:16 Pastor David Charles Well, again, you know, going back, Dr. Renahan, everything that we we know from, from revelation and reflection, um, it's, it's just an impossibility for God to, to, to be thought of in that way. It would be God's God in the way that he's revealed himself both in scripture and nature. It just doesn't make any sense.
29:38 Dr. Richard Barcellos Does God have unfulfilled wishes because he hasn't decreed them to be actual, you know.
29:48 Pastor Jim Butler Yeah, but the basic question we talked about, do we preach the gospel to every creature in light of God's comprehensive sovereignty? Absolutely, because God, who's purposed the end, has purposed the means. And gospel preaching— faith comes by hearing, hearing by the word of God. So we preach the gospel trusting in God to open the hearts and effectually call them. With reference to the sincere offer or well-meant offer as defined in other camps, yeah, there's That's a different kettle of fish, I think.
30:17 Pastor David Charles Can I tell a real quick, less than 2.5-minute story about that?
30:21 Pastor Jim Butler Can you break it down to 30 seconds?
30:23 Dr. Richard Barcellos I will.
30:24 Pastor Jim Butler Okay.
30:24 Pastor David Charles I don't remember what I was going through, and I called— I was speaking with Dr.—
30:29 Dr. Richard Barcellos 24, 23—
30:30 Pastor David Charles He's counting. How annoying is that? I called Dr. Rinahan. We were talking, and he— basically said this. He said, you know, go in the room where you worship with God's people. He said, I've been there. And he said, understand this, you cannot increase the number of those who are going to be elect. Neither can you diminish it. Now I think what he was, as I recall, at least the way I walked away with from that, was confidence that God is God and he's going to accomplish. Now that's very liberating And if you're like me, I like telling people the gospel, but I don't get myself all twisted in knots that I got to get everything just right, and somehow I got to represent God as impassioned and all these things. It's just— and I know you weren't aiming at anything that's hyper-Calvinistic, but rather saying, let God be God, obey what he said, and go to bed at night.
31:38 Dr. Richard Barcellos Can I, can I say something really quick? One, he does love people. Three, to tell people the gospel. We went shopping one time in Toledo. It took us 4 hours, and I'm going, David, your wife's waiting for the food. And he's talking to almost everybody that we came across, which is very commendable, and it really convicted.
31:57 Pastor David Charles Doesn't sound commendable.
31:59 Dr. Richard Barcellos Well, the 4-hour thing might have been a stretch, might have been 30 minutes, but you can believe these things and still go shopping and tell people about Christ.
32:11 Pastor David Charles Yeah, I never, I never—
32:14 Dr. Richard Barcellos but don't take 4 hours because what John Gerstner—
32:17 Pastor David Charles look, knowing that there's an elect people does not discourage me, it encourages me that God is the one from start to finish, going back to the decree is the one who saves sinners, period.
32:30 Dr. Richard Barcellos The first time I picked Ed up at an airport in Southern California, brother, I've been witnessing to this guy, carry it on for me. You know, I said, Eddie, we got to go over to Donna Ruby's, they got dinner for us. Anyway, go ahead.
32:46 Dr James Renihan Enjoy dinner.
32:47 Dr. Richard Barcellos Yeah, it was cold.
32:51 Pastor Jim Butler The two questions Again, very good questions submitted. Like I said, it reflects good listening, it reflects good thinking and meditation. Probably in the time— we got 12:30, right? 7 minutes. So I'll give you guys the choice. Please explain your views, support or rejection of double predestination, elected unto glory and elected unto eternal condemnation. Or a more practical one, if I can find it here. Basically, how do you deal with a cage stage Calvinist that gets— yeah, any words of wisdom to our brothers in the cage stage of Calvinism? How can they learn to exercise the special prudence and care that LCF 3.6 prescribes? I kind of favor that one actually, and appealing to the brothers here The special—
33:49 Dr. Richard Barcellos the—
33:49 Pastor Jim Butler yeah, calm down.
33:51 Dr. Richard Barcellos Yeah, I think it's Cage stage classical theism too.
33:56 Pastor Jim Butler Yeah, Cage stage anything.
33:58 Dr. Richard Barcellos And I would say in either the Calvinism or the classical theism, don't do what I did. So I had to learn to just slow down. And I think the thing I came to—
34:10 Pastor Jim Butler you mean you were more obnoxious then? Yeah. We joke because we love you.
34:21 Pastor David Charles Now you know why I love Jim, because he sees what I see. He's just not afraid to say it.
34:28 Dr. Richard Barcellos It's good to have you up here, Dave. The wife just texted, "Take the pills and empty the bag before 4." I'm actually older than David, so yeah, I think that what happened—
34:47 Pastor David Charles believe I am 3 years old, and he's shorter than David, so, so, and humbler, much humbler.
34:57 Dr. Richard Barcellos Why? So here's what happened, here's what happened to me at Master Seminary in 1986. Like, somebody gave me A.W. Pink's book and I read it, hated it. Sovereignty of God. And then he gave me some more books, and I kept reading them. I'm going, oh man. And then I read The Sovereignty of God again in January. I read Murray's Redemption Accomplished and Applied, Watson's Body of Divinity, and that book. And I got— and I'd go to work and I'd say, Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Father has purposed it so. He has died for me, I know, the Holy Spirit has showed me so. So, okay, I'd sing that during work and one of the ladies was going, "What is that? What are you singing? How come you changed the words?" And the other lady was getting mad. And I think I kept singing it. And I realized, why doesn't she love this document? It's great. Because of some abuses. And then I started hanging around friends. I started reading more books. And by the time I graduated, I zipped my mouth about halfway because I realized I don't know as much I think I know. And then I got in the ministry and started reading. I'm going, oh my. I started reading John Owen Volume 1 in 1990, I think it was, and it was like way over my head. Same thing happened with classical theism. 2005, '06, or '07, there's some stuff going on the internet. I started reading books I had owned for 25 years. Some of them I had read— over my head. And I came to understand certain things. I'm going Oh man. And then I knew James Dolzel, and we were going back and forth and stuff, and I think my head got real big. I kept reading, and I go, oh man, not only was I wrong about certain doctrines, but I was wrong about myself. I was— I thought I knew more than I did. And so having to realize I don't know a lot, and then getting friends in your life that know way more than you and are godly with their the knowledge. Not just friends that know more, but friends that know more and are humble with the knowledge. That, that kind of helps as well. So I would tell them, just slow down. You don't know what you think you know.
37:09 Pastor Jim Butler And stay off social media.
37:11 Dr. Richard Barcellos Yeah, everybody, no churchless podcasts. Don't do it. There's no, no authority over them, no accountability. Don't do that stuff.
37:21 Pastor Jim Butler And go to church. And read for 10 years before you ever get into the debates. Yeah, that's what you taught me.
37:29 Dr. Richard Barcellos Yeah, yeah, yeah.
37:30 Pastor Jim Butler And that's what— just because you read A.W. Pink's Sovereignty of God doesn't make you the expert. And not everybody on Twitter is going to be favorable to all your opinions. Debating on Twitter has to be one of the most foolish things that anybody could ever undertake. So that's a definitive statement. You can tweet that, and I stand by it. Well, we do have to conclude. We don't want to overstay our welcome here at the Free Reformed. I got a list of announcements or some things here.